I just don't think it's all purity culture

[initiald-ejavu]

Hey guys, first post here. I am a 25M and I have a problem with guilt and shame around pornography use.

See, I grew up muslim (have stopped believing since I was like... 10 or 12), so I definitely have SOME internalized purity culture built-in, but I just don't think it's the full story. I keep hearing people tell me that I shouldn't feel bad for my porn use, but I still do, even when it doesn't cause any problems for my day to day life. I still meet all my responsibilities, yet I feel like I'm using too much.

I feel this way whenever the content I watch turns "misogynistic" or rough. I am a bit of a switch sexually, so I enjoy being dominant and being submissive in turn, but the porn where the man is submissive never makes me feel bad. It's when the man is dominant that I feel terrified after a certain point of intensity.

I start to wonder if this will "warp my brain", make me disrespectful of women, make me hurtful towards my girlfriend, etc, and I can't stop thinking about it. I have OCD like symptoms in my relationship and I'm going to therapy for them already, but this is such a big catalyst that I think it deserves its own post.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around that watching something where the woman is being made submissive or belittling herself DOESN'T make me a danger. Especially when I hear in discussions about incels in which it's common to say that men's sexuality is getting fucked up due to porn and that's making them objectify women.

So this is a question to the folks here that subscribe to this view that porn fantasies are all okay (so long as it's consensual of course) and that porn cannnot have this objectifying or harmful effect: Do you think this of all kinks are equally "okay"? Keep in mind kinks like age play (where adults act like children), incest, rape, etc

When I was younger I was of the mind that basically all kinks were okay, but as I grow older I'm not so sure anymore. Even if not immoral, some kinks definitely seem unhealthy.

[Latha]

Hello and welcome to the boards, Initiald-ejavu!

Can you imagine playing the villain in a movie and hurting people in the context of whatever narrative you are in? Would someone be a bad person for doing that? Would people be wrong for watching and enjoying movies where that happens?

I think we can agree that fiction often contains violence that would be unacceptable and traumatizing in real life. We regularly see characters in stories inflict all sorts of terrible experiences on each other. But the people behind those roles might not be feeling the same things--they could be having a lot of fun or experiencing catharsis from acting through an emotional scene. That gap between what a character feels and what an actor feels is because there is a fundamental difference between, for example, murder and playing a scene in which someone is killed, or (to pull from your question) the actual act of rape and playing at being forced to do something you don't want to do. People who engage with taboo themes during sex are playing with scary ideas in (ideally) a safe space.

Of course, for some people, certain kinds of fictional violence or power dynamics remind them too closely of the real thing for them to enjoy themselves. That is okay--you don't have to engage with activities that don't work for you.

So this is a question to the folks here that subscribe to this view that porn fantasies are all okay (so long as it's consensual of course) and that porn cannnot have this objectifying or harmful effect: Do you think this of all kinks are equally "okay"? Keep in mind kinks like age play (where adults act like children), incest, rape, etc

Well, I wouldn't say that porn can never have that effect, or rather, that people never take harmful and objectifying messages away from pornography. They clearly do. Instead, I'd say that whether they do depends on more than just the porn itself--the people who say men's sexuality is getting fucked up due to pornography are oversimplifying.

Incels do not need pornography to become misogynists--there is enough sexism in other media and in the societies that we live in to achieve that anyway. There are also more than enough examples out there of feminists fighting against sexism and of people whose preferences don't match those depicted in the sort of pornography we are talking about--if incels were listening, they could use that to develop a nuanced picture of what it means to be a woman or man, and what women or men want. Equally, there are men and women who engage with apparently objectifying/sexist sexual media without letting that dictate their behavior outside that context--they understand the simple fact that not everyone wants to be treated that way, and that there is a time and place for exploring sex with those dynamics. The way I think of it, the problem isn't primarily misogynistic porn, but it might be confirmation bias and the patriarchy.

Instead of asking whether all sexual interests are equally acceptable, it might be better to make sure we can recognize when someone is (actually, not theoretically) harmed, and that we understand what can be done to prevent/mitigate that. Does that make sense?

I am sorry to hear that you've been afraid that the pornography you watch will change your brain and lead you to hurt your girlfriend and other women. This fear does seem like something that could be influenced by OCD, and so you could bring it up to your therapist. Would you be comfortable doing that? Are there any strategies you've learned in therapy for dealing with OCD-like symptoms that you think could help here?

[initiald-ejavu]

I just got started again with therapy after a long time of not being able to afford it so no fish as far as effective coping strategies yet.

I agree with everything here but it DOES raise another point I had. I heard the video game argument, and as a gamer I find it ridiculous that people say video games cause violence. So why do I have this attitude towards porn? Because I think the way these media handle the "unacceptable" or "bad" thing they're portraying is very different.

The thing is, in video games and other media the violence is never the POINT. It is the TOOL characters use to further their motivations. Even the most gory media, the gore has to be FOR something usually. I don't think ALL video games are harmless. If someone was playing "realistic torture simulator" (thankfully that doesn't exist), that would freak me out around them a bit.

I will also point out that in most media, the hero we are playing is RESISTING the violence. They fight for peace, or goodness or whatever. The violence that occurs to them is a tragedy or an oppression, not something to be celebrated. We don't glorify someone going on an axe rampage and follow their POV in detail the way we follow around people in porn objectifying or using women as sex objects.

However I find that in 90% of porn I come across, objectification of women IS the point. It IS the enjoyable part. Most porn isn't about some long simmering romance and a ton of plot threads, it's just depicticting the sexual act only, with exaggerated bodies on both (or all) actors and rough movement. That's why I feel it's problematic in a unique way. For its availability and extremity.

Instead of asking whether all sexual interests are equally acceptable

I don't think it's a problem of "acceptability". If everything is consensual then it's obviously acceptable in my book. It's about the impacts on the user. Like, I think smoking is acceptable, but it's obviously not healthy. That's how I conceive of porn. And I wanted to know if that's reasonable or if I'm just being a puritan due to my religious upbringing or otherwise fear of hurting my GF

I can't make up my mind about it is the problem. It's like I have 2 competing theories:

1- Porn is like video games, IE, it doesn’t cause you to become more violent or misogynistic or anything. The effects reported about it lowering relationship satisfaction/leading to guilt and shame are the other way around. When your relationship is at a low point, you crave porn more, when you have internalized purity culture, you feel shame and guilt, not the porn’s fault. Porn addiction is not in the DSM because porn is not addictive or harmful inherently. #2 is just purity culture speaking.

2- Porn is NOT like video games. Unlike video games where the violence is contextualized in the story of the game and hardly ever celebrated for its own sake, porn oftentimes celebrates the mistreatment or submission of women. Depending on genre it can be very harmful. The associations above are causal. Porn DOES lead to worse attitudes towards women, breakdowns in relationships, etc. The reason we don’t see much in self reported effects of porn is because of sampling bias. Only people who are comfortable with porn use would agree to answer a survey about it. But there are many (maybe even most) that aren't comfortable and it is addictive and harmful to them. #1 is just addiction speaking.

I am leaning towards #2 but wanted other people's input. I have a history of being harsh on myself so idk.

[KierC]

Hey initiald!

I’m glad you started therapy again, and I understand it can take some time after starting again to learn strategies that help. Just to confirm, were you diagnosed with OCD, and are you seeing a therapist that specializes in OCD treatment?

I don’t want to get too deep into talking about this question of whether porn can or cannot cause violence or misogyny because I suspect the urgency and importance of this question maybe tied into your OCD. If that’s the case, it’s important that we don’t dive too far into the OCD thought, because that can validate it and give it more hold in your life. Does that make sense to you?

I do, however, want to add some points to what you’ve said here regarding the video game theory. Whether or not violence is the point of the media, the bulk of research on this subject shows that exposure to this kind of media poses a risk to violence being normalized in the brain. However, that doesn’t mean that playing violent video games is going to make you become violent without you choosing it yourself. Similar with pornography, while watching it a lot can make it seem more normal (as with anything you watch often), it won’t make you a misogynystic person unless you take the media as fact and choose to let it guide how you treat other people.

With pornography, video games, and any other kind of media, I think it matters less the content you consume and more what you *do* with the content, how you think about what you’re watching and what you take away from it. Do you have any initial thoughts on that idea before we proceed?

[initiald-ejavu]

Dammit, curse you for being mental health aware and doing the thing that's best for me by not letting me seek validation/proof leading to spiralling.

I think it makes some sense... I just can't shake the feeling of guilt due to being attracted to other women. It really tears me up because I don't wanna hurt my girlfriend. I don't think I'd ever cheat or anything like that, but I feel unfaithful just for finding others attractive. I didn't use to feel this way when I was single, and I am very sexually active and open to exploration with my gf, so it's not simple prudishness or "lust bad". I don't know exactly what about it rubs me the wrong way.

I guess I'm just scared that watching porn will awaken something in me or change me in some way. A part of me thinks there is "danger" in this sexual exploration or use of pornography... Like it will change me and make me ruin the relationship/hurt my gf. On the flipside NOT exploring and getting blindsided is also bad. This may be an unrelated question: But do you think there is some essentialism to our sexuality?

Like I get we don't pick our orientation but is, say, someone who's practicing non-monogamy "choosing to" or is that just the only choice that makes sense for them and they'd be miserable otherwise? Are our kinks, and what we find attractive, and what we're drawn to "built in"? Cuz if so... that terrifies me. I feel like something this important and this potentially destructive for my life if I get it wrong shouldn't be out of my control.

As for your point though: If something makes you more violent or more misogynistic, I think it's hubris to rely on "But ultimately I'll have the choice in what to do with it". I don't think anyone is completely immune to the influence of the media they consume. In my personal experience I definitely was more objectifying and more "ogling" of women when I was watching porn a lot. As I scaled back my use I found myself less drawn to that extreme porn, and less objectifying.

[amber]

Hi initiald-ejavu,

I'm glad you can recognize how reassurance is only harmful to these thoughts. I would encourage you again to talk with your therapist about these worries as they do sound more related to mental health than something we can answer here.

I do think we can continue talking on Kier's point on consumption and action. I agree with you that we are not immune to influence. We can say that about media, people around us, or culture in general. Still, we get to chose how and what we do with that influence. There is not a strong force which makes us do things because we have self control.

What do you mean by "ogling"? It makes sense to me that you could go through a period with more sexual desire which would equate to a higher consumption of pornography as well as more sexual thoughts/interest throughout your day. Although it might've seemed like it was a cause and effect situation I very well think it could not have been. Does that make sense?