I just don't think it's all purity culture

[initiald-ejavu]

Hey guys, first post here. I am a 25M and I have a problem with guilt and shame around pornography use.

See, I grew up muslim (have stopped believing since I was like... 10 or 12), so I definitely have SOME internalized purity culture built-in, but I just don't think it's the full story. I keep hearing people tell me that I shouldn't feel bad for my porn use, but I still do, even when it doesn't cause any problems for my day to day life. I still meet all my responsibilities, yet I feel like I'm using too much.

I feel this way whenever the content I watch turns "misogynistic" or rough. I am a bit of a switch sexually, so I enjoy being dominant and being submissive in turn, but the porn where the man is submissive never makes me feel bad. It's when the man is dominant that I feel terrified after a certain point of intensity.

I start to wonder if this will "warp my brain", make me disrespectful of women, make me hurtful towards my girlfriend, etc, and I can't stop thinking about it. I have OCD like symptoms in my relationship and I'm going to therapy for them already, but this is such a big catalyst that I think it deserves its own post.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around that watching something where the woman is being made submissive or belittling herself DOESN'T make me a danger. Especially when I hear in discussions about incels in which it's common to say that men's sexuality is getting fucked up due to porn and that's making them objectify women.

So this is a question to the folks here that subscribe to this view that porn fantasies are all okay (so long as it's consensual of course) and that porn cannnot have this objectifying or harmful effect: Do you think this of all kinks are equally "okay"? Keep in mind kinks like age play (where adults act like children), incest, rape, etc

When I was younger I was of the mind that basically all kinks were okay, but as I grow older I'm not so sure anymore. Even if not immoral, some kinks definitely seem unhealthy.

[Latha]

Hello and welcome to the boards, Initiald-ejavu!

Can you imagine playing the villain in a movie and hurting people in the context of whatever narrative you are in? Would someone be a bad person for doing that? Would people be wrong for watching and enjoying movies where that happens?

I think we can agree that fiction often contains violence that would be unacceptable and traumatizing in real life. We regularly see characters in stories inflict all sorts of terrible experiences on each other. But the people behind those roles might not be feeling the same things--they could be having a lot of fun or experiencing catharsis from acting through an emotional scene. That gap between what a character feels and what an actor feels is because there is a fundamental difference between, for example, murder and playing a scene in which someone is killed, or (to pull from your question) the actual act of rape and playing at being forced to do something you don't want to do. People who engage with taboo themes during sex are playing with scary ideas in (ideally) a safe space.

Of course, for some people, certain kinds of fictional violence or power dynamics remind them too closely of the real thing for them to enjoy themselves. That is okay--you don't have to engage with activities that don't work for you.

So this is a question to the folks here that subscribe to this view that porn fantasies are all okay (so long as it's consensual of course) and that porn cannnot have this objectifying or harmful effect: Do you think this of all kinks are equally "okay"? Keep in mind kinks like age play (where adults act like children), incest, rape, etc

Well, I wouldn't say that porn can never have that effect, or rather, that people never take harmful and objectifying messages away from pornography. They clearly do. Instead, I'd say that whether they do depends on more than just the porn itself--the people who say men's sexuality is getting fucked up due to pornography are oversimplifying.

Incels do not need pornography to become misogynists--there is enough sexism in other media and in the societies that we live in to achieve that anyway. There are also more than enough examples out there of feminists fighting against sexism and of people whose preferences don't match those depicted in the sort of pornography we are talking about--if incels were listening, they could use that to develop a nuanced picture of what it means to be a woman or man, and what women or men want. Equally, there are men and women who engage with apparently objectifying/sexist sexual media without letting that dictate their behavior outside that context--they understand the simple fact that not everyone wants to be treated that way, and that there is a time and place for exploring sex with those dynamics. The way I think of it, the problem isn't primarily misogynistic porn, but it might be confirmation bias and the patriarchy.

Instead of asking whether all sexual interests are equally acceptable, it might be better to make sure we can recognize when someone is (actually, not theoretically) harmed, and that we understand what can be done to prevent/mitigate that. Does that make sense?

I am sorry to hear that you've been afraid that the pornography you watch will change your brain and lead you to hurt your girlfriend and other women. This fear does seem like something that could be influenced by OCD, and so you could bring it up to your therapist. Would you be comfortable doing that? Are there any strategies you've learned in therapy for dealing with OCD-like symptoms that you think could help here?

[initiald-ejavu]

I just got started again with therapy after a long time of not being able to afford it so no fish as far as effective coping strategies yet.

I agree with everything here but it DOES raise another point I had. I heard the video game argument, and as a gamer I find it ridiculous that people say video games cause violence. So why do I have this attitude towards porn? Because I think the way these media handle the "unacceptable" or "bad" thing they're portraying is very different.

The thing is, in video games and other media the violence is never the POINT. It is the TOOL characters use to further their motivations. Even the most gory media, the gore has to be FOR something usually. I don't think ALL video games are harmless. If someone was playing "realistic torture simulator" (thankfully that doesn't exist), that would freak me out around them a bit.

I will also point out that in most media, the hero we are playing is RESISTING the violence. They fight for peace, or goodness or whatever. The violence that occurs to them is a tragedy or an oppression, not something to be celebrated. We don't glorify someone going on an axe rampage and follow their POV in detail the way we follow around people in porn objectifying or using women as sex objects.

However I find that in 90% of porn I come across, objectification of women IS the point. It IS the enjoyable part. Most porn isn't about some long simmering romance and a ton of plot threads, it's just depicticting the sexual act only, with exaggerated bodies on both (or all) actors and rough movement. That's why I feel it's problematic in a unique way. For its availability and extremity.

Instead of asking whether all sexual interests are equally acceptable

I don't think it's a problem of "acceptability". If everything is consensual then it's obviously acceptable in my book. It's about the impacts on the user. Like, I think smoking is acceptable, but it's obviously not healthy. That's how I conceive of porn. And I wanted to know if that's reasonable or if I'm just being a puritan due to my religious upbringing or otherwise fear of hurting my GF

I can't make up my mind about it is the problem. It's like I have 2 competing theories:

1- Porn is like video games, IE, it doesn’t cause you to become more violent or misogynistic or anything. The effects reported about it lowering relationship satisfaction/leading to guilt and shame are the other way around. When your relationship is at a low point, you crave porn more, when you have internalized purity culture, you feel shame and guilt, not the porn’s fault. Porn addiction is not in the DSM because porn is not addictive or harmful inherently. #2 is just purity culture speaking.

2- Porn is NOT like video games. Unlike video games where the violence is contextualized in the story of the game and hardly ever celebrated for its own sake, porn oftentimes celebrates the mistreatment or submission of women. Depending on genre it can be very harmful. The associations above are causal. Porn DOES lead to worse attitudes towards women, breakdowns in relationships, etc. The reason we don’t see much in self reported effects of porn is because of sampling bias. Only people who are comfortable with porn use would agree to answer a survey about it. But there are many (maybe even most) that aren't comfortable and it is addictive and harmful to them. #1 is just addiction speaking.

I am leaning towards #2 but wanted other people's input. I have a history of being harsh on myself so idk.

[KierC]

Hey initiald!

I’m glad you started therapy again, and I understand it can take some time after starting again to learn strategies that help. Just to confirm, were you diagnosed with OCD, and are you seeing a therapist that specializes in OCD treatment?

I don’t want to get too deep into talking about this question of whether porn can or cannot cause violence or misogyny because I suspect the urgency and importance of this question maybe tied into your OCD. If that’s the case, it’s important that we don’t dive too far into the OCD thought, because that can validate it and give it more hold in your life. Does that make sense to you?

I do, however, want to add some points to what you’ve said here regarding the video game theory. Whether or not violence is the point of the media, the bulk of research on this subject shows that exposure to this kind of media poses a risk to violence being normalized in the brain. However, that doesn’t mean that playing violent video games is going to make you become violent without you choosing it yourself. Similar with pornography, while watching it a lot can make it seem more normal (as with anything you watch often), it won’t make you a misogynystic person unless you take the media as fact and choose to let it guide how you treat other people.

With pornography, video games, and any other kind of media, I think it matters less the content you consume and more what you *do* with the content, how you think about what you’re watching and what you take away from it. Do you have any initial thoughts on that idea before we proceed?

[initiald-ejavu]

Dammit, curse you for being mental health aware and doing the thing that's best for me by not letting me seek validation/proof leading to spiralling.

I think it makes some sense... I just can't shake the feeling of guilt due to being attracted to other women. It really tears me up because I don't wanna hurt my girlfriend. I don't think I'd ever cheat or anything like that, but I feel unfaithful just for finding others attractive. I didn't use to feel this way when I was single, and I am very sexually active and open to exploration with my gf, so it's not simple prudishness or "lust bad". I don't know exactly what about it rubs me the wrong way.

I guess I'm just scared that watching porn will awaken something in me or change me in some way. A part of me thinks there is "danger" in this sexual exploration or use of pornography... Like it will change me and make me ruin the relationship/hurt my gf. On the flipside NOT exploring and getting blindsided is also bad. This may be an unrelated question: But do you think there is some essentialism to our sexuality?

Like I get we don't pick our orientation but is, say, someone who's practicing non-monogamy "choosing to" or is that just the only choice that makes sense for them and they'd be miserable otherwise? Are our kinks, and what we find attractive, and what we're drawn to "built in"? Cuz if so... that terrifies me. I feel like something this important and this potentially destructive for my life if I get it wrong shouldn't be out of my control.

As for your point though: If something makes you more violent or more misogynistic, I think it's hubris to rely on "But ultimately I'll have the choice in what to do with it". I don't think anyone is completely immune to the influence of the media they consume. In my personal experience I definitely was more objectifying and more "ogling" of women when I was watching porn a lot. As I scaled back my use I found myself less drawn to that extreme porn, and less objectifying.

[amber]

Hi initiald-ejavu,

I'm glad you can recognize how reassurance is only harmful to these thoughts. I would encourage you again to talk with your therapist about these worries as they do sound more related to mental health than something we can answer here.

I do think we can continue talking on Kier's point on consumption and action. I agree with you that we are not immune to influence. We can say that about media, people around us, or culture in general. Still, we get to chose how and what we do with that influence. There is not a strong force which makes us do things because we have self control.

What do you mean by "ogling"? It makes sense to me that you could go through a period with more sexual desire which would equate to a higher consumption of pornography as well as more sexual thoughts/interest throughout your day. Although it might've seemed like it was a cause and effect situation I very well think it could not have been. Does that make sense?

[initiald-ejavu]

Still, we get to chose how and what we do with that influence. There is not a strong force which makes us do things because we have self control.

I agree. I understand most of why this is salient to me is OCD related so I may not be the best person for discussing this, but I know I'm not the only one that thinks this way. And besides, I have had this opinion since before I met my girlfriend so I can't blame it all on OCD. And it being salient because of OCD doesn't change whether or not it makes sense.

This is also why I'm keeping the discussion away from the morality of it, and more towards the health of it.

I feel like doing something that influences you in a way that is harmful to women still cannot be good for you. It's like... sure we have self control, and we get to decide what to do with how media influences us... but that doesn't make it a good idea to play "Realistic Torture Simulator" or "Peeping Tom Simulator" 5 hours a day. The "We have self control" argument doesn't extend forever imo.

Like for example, I read the primary article about "porn addiction" you guys have, and in it you lump it with "shopaholic" and "gambling addiction", then say that neither is an "addiction" technically because no substance is involved. Except... the DSM DOES recognize gambling addiction (it's called "gambling disorder" to be fair), so clearly although we do have self control, some things CAN be too influencing for some people.

What do you mean by "ogling"? It makes sense to me that you could go through a period with more sexual desire which would equate to a higher consumption of pornography as well as more sexual thoughts/interest throughout your day.

I find that the more I watch porn the more I tend to look at women as if I was looking at candy. Primarily for their bodies and they conform/don't conform to beauty standards. The less I watch it the more I find myself attracted for different reasons. A pretty smile or a good joke. I find my attraction takes on a more "wholesome" tone? That's the best way I can describe it. (Which certainly has upsides and downsides when it comes to someone with OCD but that's another topic)

And this wasn't a case of "I experienced less desire therefore I watched less porn". It was a "I forced myself to watch less porn and as a result the way I desire changed".

[Heather]

Hi there, initiald-ejavu.

I feel like you might think that in order for this -- your habits with porn use and the way you view people in it and because of it -- to be an issue for you, it has to be something clinical, like an addiction. The fact of the matter is that, as explained here, by a highly credible and longtime sexologist -- https://www.scarleteen.com/read/sex-sex ... -addiction -- there simply isn't a basis for porn "addiction," and that is supported by the most broadly regarded clinical references of our field, including the DSM. As well, there's a reason why those references expressly don't use the term addiction, but instead terms like disorder for things like compulsive gambling. Addiction is a very specific framework (as is compulsion, and that's more often what we're talking about with things like this: compulsion and impulsivity, which are often parts of addiction when an addiction exists, but are not themselves addiction).

But like you've said here in this last post, you know what is and isn't good for you and does and doesn't feel right for you. You don't have to have an addiction for something to have an ill effect on you, and you also don't have to be at risk of doing someone else harm for something to be bad for you. I think you've been quite clear that, for you, porn use, to some degree, or certain kinds of porn, inclines you to objectify women, and moving away from it has had positive impacts on you. No one here would argue that reality for you isn't, so I'm not entirely sure why it feels like you feel like you need to make a case for that here.

That said, being attracted to more than one person -- something that is the case for almost everyone most of the time -- isn't something dangerous for people, and probably isn't for you, either. Just like people can have more than one child, friend or pet they love or have a relationships with without having less love for one of those people, the same goes with people and attraction.

I can't speak for you, but personally -- and I say this as someone who has been in both polyamory and monogamy throughout my life -- it's more meaningful to me to know that a partner chooses me when they are potentially attracted to far more than just me than it would be if I were the only person on earth they were attracted to, you know? And I also know that just like we can like a whole range of things on this earth, we also usually have the capacity (and if not, can learn) to make choices with all of those likes that are best for us and the other people in our lives. We don't need to not like things to make good choices.

What I always personally want for all of us when it comes to making our own best choices is for that to come from a positive place -- a place of wanting to care best for ourselves and others, and all the intention that can fuel that -- rather than a place of fear. The latter both doesn't tend to be as lasting, but it also isn't a good headspace to live in, whereas being focused on what's good for us and what comes from a place of care, love, respect, kindness, including self-care, tends to both be more enduring and allows us to truly feel good in our best choices, rather than feeling like they are things we have to do to OR ELSE, if you get me. <3

[initiald-ejavu]

No one here would argue that reality for you isn't

Maybe not here, but I feel many people would argue that... After leaving my religion I've been told that porn is "totally fine" and has absolutely no negative impacts and is about as harmful as drinking water, etc. So I felt I need to justify why I think that isn't the case, hence the title and this whole spiel. I feel like certain forms of extreme porn, in large doses can definitely be problematic, and that's all I wanted to argue. I guess I was looking for some validation.

It may not be an addiction in the clinical sense but I feel people are either in the "It's a terrible sin and destructive for you" camp or the "it's as harmless as a puppy" camp and I just didn't agree with either so I came here to talk about it.

You make a great point at the end, I suppose me being attracted to many people yet choosing my girlfriend can be seen as making it being more meaningful. But it'll probably take me a little while to get out of that place of fear anyways, as it was never a rational place. I'll see what I can do in therapy.

If anyone has similar experiences with viewing sex and sexuality as "dangerous" in some ways (I suspect a lot of religious folks do) I'd love to know how they got out of that.

Though before that, there is something else I wanna ask. What are ya'll's general view of the traditional or religious views around gender and sexuality? Do you outright reject them? Is there some truth in things like "Lust is a sin", "Lust is dangerous", etc? I find it hard to believe it's ALL wrong, but it does often stand in opposition to more modern views and I don't know how to square that. Or maybe I just don't understand either side well...

[Heather]

We can't speak for anyone else, alas, we can only speak for our team and our community here. I'm sorry to hear that other people around you insist on telling you their opinions in ways that don't respect your own when it comes to your own life and choices. If you haven't tried it yet, you may find it helpful to reply to invalidating responses like that with something like, "I understand and appreciate that that's been your experience, but it's not totally fine for me, so I hope you can appreciate that we haven't had the same experience and respect the choices and feelings I have for myself."

It may not be an addiction in the clinical sense but I feel people are either in the "It's a terrible sin and destructive for you" camp or the "it's as harmless as a puppy" camp and I just didn't agree with either so I came here to talk about it.

. Personally, I see more nuance than this, but talking about this has also been a big part of my job for almost three decades, and I also have people in my circles who do everything from work in porn as performers or directors to sexologists and sex educators who talk to people about sexual media. Suffice it to say, we certainly approach it with far more nuance and diversity than either of those very polar views.

We have a pair of writers here who wrote pieces based on purity culture, and its impacts, here for us a while ago whose work might feel relevant for you until and unless anyone else pops in here to talk about viewing sex as dangerous because of religious views/beliefs (that's not part of my own life experience: for sure one half of my family viewed it, and my queerness, that way, but none of that had any real impact on me apart from showing me those views were not sound): https://www.scarleteen.com/read/impurity-culture

[initiald-ejavu]

Thank you, those articles seem very relevant for me. I'll give them a read.

[Heather]

You're welcome. And you're of course always welcome to start any other topics you'd like to!