I Know Sex isn't Everything, So Why Does it Feel Like Everything?

[Master_Classer]

I've found that I've put a lot of importance on sex. As in, it's become my only goal in life, which isn't good since having sex as your goal makes it harder to get it.

This causes me to think that every day I don't have sex, I've somehow failed, which would mean every day of my life is a failure.

I know that's a poor way of thinking, but it doesn't matter what I know logically, as that doesn't change my beliefs.

I feel very jealous and bitter sometimes when I watch porn or hear random strangers on the internet talk about sex they've had. I'm noticing how others have what I want. Of course I'm jealous. My feelings are my feelings and jealousy is a normal response to seeing other people have something I desperately want. That isn't the problem.

The problem is the shame. I think random strangers are better than me just because they've had any form of sexual experience and I haven't. If nothing else really matters to me, then it doesn't matter who they are as a person, what they do, or anything else. As long as someone has had a sexual experience, they're better than me by default.

Even I know sex isn't that good and is just one part of life, and I'm hyping it up too much. I know it won't make me happy or make me feel more fulfilled, but again, it doesn't matter what I logically think because it doesn't change my beliefs.

I feel that my life is pointless and empty without sex. I even have trouble deciding what kind of ice cream flavor I want, or whether I want ice cream at all. Since those decisions don't affect whether I have sex ultimately the decision doesn't matter to me, so I end up being really indecisive and asking myself "Why" all the time and the answer is usually "No reason because you're not going to having sex anyway."

One other thing I've noticed is that saying nothing else really matters (like I said earlier) isn't entirely true. Other things DO matter to me, like food, video games, or having clothes to wear. It's just that I've already achieved those things, so I don't really count them in my mind. I have a sneaking suspicion the same thing would happen with sex if I achieved it. Sex is like this magical McGuffin that I've put on a pedestal, and I can never take it off until I experience how mundane it actually is.

Most healthy people don't define their value or worth based on how much sex they've had. Life isn't a scoreboard, and there's no way to accurately describe a person's inherent worth through their actions or experiences. However, I feel that you can and should judge my worth based on those things, even if I recognize that this isn't how I would judge someone else.

So my question is: How can I change the belief that having less sexual experience makes me inferior to other people, when knowing logically that this belief is irrational hasn't changed how I actually feel? Because right now, I feel very inferior, especially considering the fact that I'm as far away from sex as I possibly can be.

[mikky]

Hey there,

From your last posts it sounds that therapy, at least right now, is not helping reconcile these beliefs about yourself with what it seems like you logically know to be true. This does sound like a question/issue, though, that is likely far beyond our scope (education). And I get it- there’s a lot of things I experience that I logically know are not true, and not aligned with my values whatsoever, like that my appearance does not make me a fundamentally worthless person; yet still every experience I have feels twisted and marred by that lens.

I guess- I am just not sure what to offer you. One thing would be looking at other user’s posts on the boards and seeing if the wide spectrum of types of people and their relationships with sex and sexual experiences feels at all helpful. Like, seeing that it is a part of people’s lives that is good or mundane or difficult or nonexistent….

Another thing we can offer is education on sex, cultural attitudes around sex, the history of sex and power and control, etc. We don’t earn or deserve to have sex with other people. We also can have a sexuality and journey around that without other people being involved at all.

Can you tell us what, if anything, within our scope we can help with?

Additionally, I’ve compiled some articles that I think could resonate with you, some on shifting deeply held beliefs about sex:

Man to Man: On Sex, Masculinity, and Being Yourself
Unpacking Cultural Myths and Biases About Women's Bodies & Sex
Will I be the only virgin in my circle of friends and family forever?
Magical Cups & Bloody Brides: Virginity in Context
Deep down I think that sex is bad and wrong. What can I do??

[Master_Classer]

Some of the articles were topical. Don't worry. I did read them.

Alright then, let's look at what I said in the first line of the earlier post.

which isn't good since having sex as your goal makes it harder to get it.

Is that true? Does wanting a romantic relationship and only doing things that get you closer to one make it harder to get one?

I hear this sentiment a lot. People who only want a romantic relationship don't get one, while people who don't care just stumble into one. In some places, I hear that "stumbling onto it" is actually the only good and healthy way for a relationship to start.

It's like reading those "real" sex stories online where the author says, "One thing led to another," and then they're just having sex. They skip the most important part, and it gives you this weird feeling that it was all chance and circumstance. (Because it kind of is. The things I do can only give me the opportunity for a relationship because, sadly, it relies on another person being there at the right time. So maybe the stories are real.)

However, I do know the sentiment can't be true. If it were, no one would be in a relationship because they would have to not want one and also not try to get one in order to have one. Which is an oxymoron.

I know people who say things like "stop seeking out relationships" or "stop wanting them so you can get them" are just trying to help. But what if I stop wanting relationships because I want a relationship and I think not wanting it will help me get it? See, it doesn't make any sense.

What they're trying to say is basically what I was asking you how to do in my previous post. They're saying to have other things in your life. Go out and do activities and hobbies and make friends without thinking of sex or a relationship as the end goal. Do things for yourself and not for a relationship because then you'll be disappointed when it doesn't happen, and you'll be an insecure person who relies on a relationship too much.

So I listened.

I did finally figure out that only doing things that provide a direct possibility for a romantic relationship doesn't work to actually get me one. That's because I have no way of knowing whether something will give me an opportunity for a relationship, and because having friends is apparently a good way to get romantic relationships. Vouching, social networking, and all that.

Which is why I need to make friends and do hobbies and stuff. Not because I want those things. Talking to people is the thing I hate the most in this world, and I'm not interested in anything else unless it's sex-related. In other words, I'm the sleazy guy who goes to dance lessons just to hook up with women. I don't want to be that person, but I can't change what I want or why I do things. And the only reason I don't want to be that person is because I think it will make it harder to get a relationship. Not because I truly care about being a good person.

Because what I really need is repeated contact with the same people, because that's how I make friends, which is how I get a romantic relationship. But I'm always going to be doing it for the wrong reason. I'm always going to be making friends and going to classes just for a relationship, which, according to everyone, makes it harder for that to happen. And I've tried and I've tried, but I can't seem to change my motives.

I've realized that self-help advice is just dating advice. I'm only going to therapy, reading books, trying to cut down on porn, and trying, for so much of my life, to be someone who is good enough to have sex. I only got my stupid job just for the chance to make friends so I can have a chance at sex. I listened to their advice to stop valuing sex so much and do other things, but only because I value sex so much and I think that will help me get it.

But it doesn't matter. All my work and improvement and pain is worthless because I'm doing it for the wrong reasons. I'm not doing it for "myself" or my own happiness like you're supposed to. Everything I'm doing is for sex, and I can't seem to change that.

So again I'm left with a question (or I guess two): If I can't change the fact that I want a relationship above everything else, can I still have a life and pursue that relationship without doing everything for the wrong reasons? Does the fact that I'm doing these things for the sake of a relationship actually sabotage my chances of getting one?

[Heather]

Hi there, Master_Classer.

You know, those setups where people are just hanging out and then sex just "happens" are, you're correct, sometimes about a lot of information being left out. But sometimes it is because it does actually feel like that for people -- the thing is that when it does, it often isn't a good feeling, exactly, at least not for one person, if not everyone involved. Because sex "just happening" or feeling like that is more often because people aren't doing things they need to to make it good for everyone, like making sure consenting is actually happening or asking someone what they like and want. For more on that, you might check this out: https://www.scarleteen.com/read/sex-sex ... en-instead

You quoted Mikky on a statement she made about sex, but then asked about pursuing romantic relationships. These aren't the same things. By all means, relationships aren't things that just fall from the sky or happen for us, we do all generally have to seek them out, and then, of course, once we find people to explore them with -- or possibly explore them with -- then there is ongoing effort, investment, and a lot of things we all need to do to grow and nurture those relationships, on top of just experiencing them. The idea people just "stumble in" to romantic or other kinds of relationships is more of a romantic notion than a reality. In reality, while sometimes we may, say, meet a partner unexpectedly, or get involved romantically when we weren't looking for it or planning on it, none of this is passive -- we still all have to do things to actually do something with those kinds of connections. Relationships aren't things that passively happen to people, they are ongoing interactions and connections we create with each other and all need to be actively involved with or else either nothing happens, or, if only one person is really being active, are one-sided, which rarely feels good for anyone involved.

In other words, you're right, people advising you to stop looking or paying attention aren't giving you good advice. By all means, sometimes we need to watch how hard we're trying with any of this, because a) a life that's laser-focused on only the pursuit of this doesn't tend to be or feel great, and b) if and when someone gets to a point of desperation, it can be a thing other people pick up on that understandably makes them less inclined to want to get close to that person. But we have to pay attention and we have to engage in active things to, if not find, absolutely to be part of any kind of ongoing relationship.

It does sound like you might need to remind yourself that going about any of this thinking about a relationship or sex as something to acquire for yourself, not as shared experiences with someone else that need to be mutually wanted and mutually satisfying isn't the way. I don't tell you that because otherwise it's harder to find those relationships or interactions, I tell you because if all that's really centered are your own wants or needs, then that doesn't really take the other person into account as a whole person, you know?

I don't think you doing things to try and find connection with another person or people is a problem. But I do think that you need to be sure you're always remembering that whatever interactions, experiences or relationships you have with another person need to be as much about that person -- as a whole person, not just as someone who can give you something you want -- as about you. Get what I'm saying?

[Master_Classer]

I tell you because if all that's really centered are your own wants or needs, then that doesn't really take the other person into account as a whole person, you know?

Are you calling me selfish here or is it just a gentle reminder of how only focusing on sex can be problematic for relationships?

But it doesn't matter. I don't think I can solve this since I've given up on stopping porn or even just cutting back. Porn just makes me focus and value sex more. I can't watch porn and try to decrease my focus on sex. Those two things are kind of opposites. I can't do both.

Not watching porn wouldn't solve anything anyway. It's basically the choice of whether I want a meaningless life where I watch porn or just a meaningless life. Why would I ever choose the ladder?

And you, and the internet, and my therapist, and everywhere else can't give me a clear answer on porn. It's all over the place. Everyone says different things and I'm stuck not knowing who to believe.

Sometimes I wish I was just an alcoholic. That's simpler. Everyone has the same consensus on that. I could tell people I'm a recovering alcoholic and they would say how strong I am and how difficult it must have been.

I try and I try so hard to live a better life and most of it ends in failure, but sometimes I succeed. Again, success just doesn't matter to me as it's not sex so it's just another failure.

I gotta do all this work while believing life is meaningless. Do you know how difficult that is? I have to do things for reasons I don't think even exist. I have to do things that feel horrible because that's how life gets "better" and avoiding feeling bad is the reason I'm stuck in such a meaningless life. Now I can't listen or trust my feelings. I don't even know the meaning of the words "good" or "bad" anymore.

I've typed and retyped so many responses at this point, so I'm just gonna send this one.

[mikky]

While I can’t say exactly what Heather meant by that sentence, I don’t think they were calling you selfish nor saying that only focusing on sex can be problematic for relationships (though, sure, it can be). Rather, my understanding would be that sex with another person is not just about you and what you want- it’s going to have to be something decided upon, wanted, and experienced by you AND someone else. Reducing other people flatly to just delivering a sexual outcome we want is not going to be very helpful to a healthy and satisfying experience.

Again, it seems like the issue here is that you feel like your only options involve a meaningless life. Getting adequate help for that is, in my opinion, far more important than figuring out some sort of answer to whether or not porn can be a part of your life.

I don’t know what kind of clear answer on porn you are looking for. It seems like, at least in my opinion, the role that porn is playing currently in your life is unhealthy and compulsive.

I understand that it might seem like having a more known-about issue would be easier or better, but I think that is quite reductive of the experience of alcoholism. When people I love have been in active addiction, it’s never been straightforward, and they absolutely do not receive universal understanding and support from all people around them- especially when those folks have acted in ways that hurt people they cared about, became isolated, let people down…

You said that,

I gotta do all this work while believing life is meaningless. Do you know how difficult that is? I have to do things for reasons I don't think even exist. I have to do things that feel horrible because that's how life gets "better" and avoiding feeling bad is the reason I'm stuck in such a meaningless life.

I actually do know how difficult that is, personally. I’ve mentioned before that while I haven’t had the exact experiences or beliefs/struggles you have, I can relate to some of the overarching feelings you’ve had. Yes, doing things that feel horrible is often part of recovering and healing and getting un-stuck. I get that it feels really bad, but I think the work is worth it.

[Master_Classer]

I think what I was trying to ask in this post was if it was okay to do healthy things for the wrong reasons. Well, I have a feeling I was just being overly worried and listening to too much bad advice. I mean people start romantic relationships because it feels good. Maybe all motives are selfish. People only help others to feel better about themselves in the long run, right?

I can have coinciding motivations too. For example I can get a job because I think it might help me get closer to sex, but I'm also doing it for the money. There's other reasons for doing things and I need to remember that.

Another question I was trying to get at was: "Are all motives ultimately about the self or helping that self and would that be morally wrong?" which is way too existential and philosophical and doesn't have a place here. I don't need to answer that question or if there even is an answer.

Wait, was that the question? I'm thinking about this too much. I don't really know what I'm saying anymore.

Which reminds me. Maybe I shouldn't ask stuff here. None of my posts have been very queer. and at this point they're barely about sex. I'm just looking for some reassurance that what I'm doing here isn't wrong or overbearing. The meaninglessness of my life isn't really a sex ed question though.

Again, focusing so much on how to de-center sex from my life actually just makes me think and care about sex even more, so my post is contributing to the problem.

[Heather]

People only help others to feel better about themselves in the long run, right?

People generally help others to help others, in my experience as a lifelong helper. But I can really only speak for myself: feeling good about myself when it happens is a nice side effect, but no, I don't help other people for myself, I help other people to help those people.

I wasn't calling you selfish, by the way, I was trying to explain that when we're looking to forge connections with other people that if we want those connections to be good and enriching for everyone involved, that's something that really needs to be about everyone involved, and without us just trying to get something that we want like we're shaking candy out of a vending machine, you know? When it's actually something good for everyone involved, something that feels truly satisfying, sex is generally an open-ended shared experience between people, not a thing to get or have, nor something that's about winning, losing or failing. It sounds to me like you've been thinking about it in a way as something that validates or proves your worth rather than as something we can do with someone else to explore pleasure and connection together. That way of looking at or approaching sex won't likely be very good for any of your partners, but I think the person it'll be the worst for would probably be you. <3

Can I check in with you on if you feel depressed? I ask because some of what I have been hearing in your posts sounds like depression to me.

For the record, we don't need people to be queer to be here. Queer frameworks of sex and relationships are centered here because this is a site, service and organization founded by a queer person, with a largely queer staff, and because queer frameworks of sex and relationships have generally been based in things like accurate information, shared pleasure, diversity as a given, deep connection, mutual aid and free sexual and emotional expression, whereas heterosexual/heteronormative frameworks have historically been -- and often are still currently -- primarily based in social control. You're as welcome here as anyone.

But you also only have to be here if you want to be here, so if and when you feel like this isn't the place for you, or like talking about this here isn't right or good for you, you also get to dip out anytime.

[Master_Classer]

Yes, I do know. You are just repeating what I said albeit in a nicer, more therapeutic way.

My reasons for getting into a relationship are bad and will cause the relationship to be bad. Other healthy people have some great noble reason for a relationship and I don't.

When I think about sex as "something to get" its also bad and will cause me problems.

So how do I change that? How do I think about relationships in the right way? How do I think about sex in the right way? Because clearly I don't and just knowing I don't doesn't change my beliefs.

But also...

This does sound like a question/issue, though, that is likely far beyond our scope (education). And I get it- there’s a lot of things I experience that I logically know are not true, and not aligned with my values whatsoever,

So maybe I shouldn't be asking this again.

I really do understand what you're saying as I was also saying it, but I can't seem to change how I think. It could be this isn't something I can think my way out of and I have to let it go and just focus on living my life.

[Heather]

How you summed up what I said doesn't feel like what I said to me. I don't personally think what I described up there is about anyone being great or noble, but instead, about people viewing sex as something intimate we can do and experience together and the people we have sex with as whole people. I can't speak for you, but my bar for great and noble is a lot higher than that.

I strongly suspect that what will change how you feel about this is for you to meet a person you care about as a person and also explore sexual partnership with. In other words, I suspect the change to how you are thinking about this will be based in a change of feelings, and when those feelings are there, I also don't think that changing your mind will be the reach it feels like now. <3

[Heather]

I do still want to check in with you about depression, by the way.

As well, if you're up to it, I wonder if you'd be open to talking about where you think you learned the way you've been thinking, both about sex and about yourself and your value as a person. Sometimes figuring out where things we're hung up on come from can go a long way towards helping us untangle thinking that's messing us up.

[Master_Classer]

I don't feel the depression is very important. Or at least getting a diagnosis wasn't very helpful. I know some people say that diagnoses and labels are helpful to feel less alone or to try to understand what's going on or to feel some validation that they're not just "lazy" or "broken." Ok, maybe they do matter. I don't think about it that way though. I still feel alone and lazy and broken.

I am officially depressed, but I don't think about it a lot or really care at all. I have a few other diagnoses too, but again I just don't care, so I don't mention it.

As for where I learned my way of thinking from... Porn. I think its mostly all from porn.

I sort of took Mikky's advice and read a lot of other people's posts and I see a lot of people also talking about porn, but usually not in a positive way (I guess because if they thought porn was all positives then they wouldn't post about it here. Survivorship bias and all that). I think I've learned and internalized values about sex from porn and I don't think you need me to tell you how unhealthy that is.

I mean what else could it be? I've been alone and isolated for so long pretty much only watching porn. I only see and hear sex from porn.

Porn was and is the only thing that reliably makes me feel good, so I thought actually having sex would make me feel even better, but maybe not. Porn isn't sex so I have no idea. It could be worse or better, but as you said I don't think quantifying sex by how good it makes me feel is a good metric. Or maybe it is. I don't know. You said yourself I won't really know until I actually have some sort of relationship.

I keep coming back to the conclusion that I need to stop watching porn, or at least change my relationship with it. But I don't want to, and I haven't been able to make myself do that. So I really don't know where that leaves me.

And just as a side note, I did like what you said to someone else in the "Struggling with Size Insecurity" post even if it was kind of a different topic:

I think that something that can make the kind of struggle you're having so much harder is only thinking about those body parts as being about sex or sexual appeal -- when we do that with any part of our bodies, or the whole of our bodies, it generally sets us up for a world of struggle

I thought it could apply here.

[Heather]

Thanks for sharing all of this with me.

A diagnosis alone doesn't usually do much for anyone without also having a treatment plan, and having that treatment, whatever it is, be one that works for them. I don't think just knowing we are depressed tends to offer us much of anything but something we can then use to help us manage that depression. If we don't do anything with that diagnosis, it's very unlikely anything will change. When you were diagnosed with depression, were you also offered treatment, like a medication or a particular kind of therapy?

You know, we have a piece here -- this one: https://www.scarleteen.com/read/bodies/ ... evelopment -- that comes from a talk I was at in the UK many years ago where the person who was delivering that talk, a fantastic sex researcher and teacher, Alan McKee, was taking the categories you see in that piece and talking about which of them mainstream porn as a whole tends to do well with reflecting, poor with reflecting, or doesn't really address at all. And yep, on the whole, porn does a bad job or no job at all with most of those things (the exception being that most of it at least does show that sex is something people can enjoy).

Mainstream porn, in particular, certainly leaves a whole lot out, including things that even happen in the making of a good deal of it (like consenting: everyone in porn they are making by choice is usually consenting to everything in it, that just isn't something people making mainstream porn usually show). It definitely tends to show sex as very one dimensional, as very objectifying, as not actually about intimacy, or people connecting in any way save how Tab A fits into Slot B. It rarely shows us people caring for each other, being tender, or people being realistically vulnerable, including in ways that are mostly about pleasure and sex rather than the relationship those things are happening in. For instance, I've personally never seen or heard of mainstream porn that presents someone interested in something sexual they aren't sure a partner will be into, or where they need to talk through their own fears or concerns about it, in a real way.

I know it's hard to picture, since it isn't something you have seen and it's so counter to what so much sexual media shows, but things like that, or things like people being honest with each other about body image issues, asking to switch positions for comfort, needing a beat to deal with big feelings, doing aftercare after sex: all of the things like that and more really add a richness to sex IRL that porn or interactions modeled after most porn just won't have. Heck, most porn is also only designed and made expressly with one person masturbating alone in mind, so the idea we could soak in mainstream porn and not have a pretty self-focused or "get"-focused sense of sex strikes me as unrealistic, you know?

In other words, if your only model for sex -- it sounds like things like honest conversations with parents haven't been in the picture -- until you started doing things like reading some actual sex information or having conversations like this has been mainstream porn, then by all means, I'd be surprised if your ideas about sex were anything *but* very one-dimensional and one-sided.

I don't think that to change how you're thinking, or to have healthy views of sex, a person has to stop looking at sexual media, I really don't. For once, there is sexual media out there that does better: that does things like shows (or describes: not all sexual media is visual) real people acting like real people (even if they are real people who know a camera is on), that shows consenting, that shows people engaging in sex in a way that's less heteronormative, vapid and objectifying than most porn, and that is made with at least some of this at front of mind. For obvious reasons, we don't and can't link people up with sexual entertainment, but if you do searches for things like "ethical porn" you will likely find some of what I am talking about.

You also have the option of approaching porn differently, including just doing what you can to remind yourself that fantasy is okay, but it isn't reality or even a reflection of reality. And when it comes to mainstream porn, it's usually more than just fantasy, it's fantasy made with the express goal of getting people to part with money or clicks. Capitalism, suffice it to say, never tells us jack about healthy sexuality. A hint, as well: if you're not paying for sexual media, it probably isn't ethical by that token alone, and I think that really says something -- IMHO, if what you're looking at is something given to you by someone, or a company, who thinks it's okay not to pay sex workers or to rob them of their intellectual property, then at least part of what you're soaking in is a loud message that sex isn't a place where we need to care about each other.

I also think that the more you educate yourself about sex from avenues other than porn, that is going to inform how you take in what you see, it just won't be something instant.

I also agree that what I said in that other post can apply here! I'm glad you noticed it. <3 I know this has already been another big download, so I'll step to the side for now until you let me know how all of this has landed with you and if it's helpful at all.

[Heather]

Relatedly, you might find these pieces helpful:
• https://www.scarleteen.com/read/culture ... xual-media
• https://www.scarleteen.com/read/culture/bare-bodies