Is Coming Out Worth it?
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Is Coming Out Worth it?
I am a 17 year old college sophomore that currently thinks of myself as bisexual and somewhat sexually fluid. I'm not always comfortable with the label and may later change it or not have any at all.
But, I come from a country that believes that any kind of same-sex attraction is unnatural and some kind of European influence. As a result of that any kind of same-sex sexual activity or relationship comes with a prison sentence (the law isn't very clear tbh and I think it was more a statement of the country's attitudes than any kind of practical legislature). Anyway my mom gave birth to me in the US so that I could have a good college education and I've been here since I graduated high school and might not ever leave.
However, my family shares pretty much the same attitudes that my country has and that's not likely to change. Even if my nuclear family, by some miracle, becomes okay with my sexuality, I would lose the network of extended family members around the world that host me when I go to places.
Based on this, I am not comfortable with ever fully leaving the metaphorical closet. However, I feel like forcing myself to marry a man and have kids with him, when that is not necessarily something that I want wouldn't be a good idea either. Also, right now, even though I am about equally sexually attracted to most genders, I am more interested in pursuing relationships with women. I just wonder if there is a possible middle ground with not coming out and coming out and seeing how I could navigate that. Thanks
But, I come from a country that believes that any kind of same-sex attraction is unnatural and some kind of European influence. As a result of that any kind of same-sex sexual activity or relationship comes with a prison sentence (the law isn't very clear tbh and I think it was more a statement of the country's attitudes than any kind of practical legislature). Anyway my mom gave birth to me in the US so that I could have a good college education and I've been here since I graduated high school and might not ever leave.
However, my family shares pretty much the same attitudes that my country has and that's not likely to change. Even if my nuclear family, by some miracle, becomes okay with my sexuality, I would lose the network of extended family members around the world that host me when I go to places.
Based on this, I am not comfortable with ever fully leaving the metaphorical closet. However, I feel like forcing myself to marry a man and have kids with him, when that is not necessarily something that I want wouldn't be a good idea either. Also, right now, even though I am about equally sexually attracted to most genders, I am more interested in pursuing relationships with women. I just wonder if there is a possible middle ground with not coming out and coming out and seeing how I could navigate that. Thanks
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi radicallyunique, welcome to the boards!
I'm sorry that you're in this situation. Unfortunately, I am all too familiar with my sexuality not being accepted by family members. I can give you some advice on navigating this, but ultimately you have to make a decision- whether that means not coming out to your family (which doesn't mean you have to stay totally in the closet!) or coming out to them and risking the consequences.
What does your network of support look like? Are you out to anyone in your friend group? Are there people in your life who you know would support you if you did come out to your family?
I agree with you, that forcing yourself to marry a man and have kids with him is not a good idea- what's the correlation between this and coming out to your family? Is there pressure from your family to marry and have kids in the near future?
"Middle ground," to lots of LGBTQ+ people, often looks like being out to certain groups of people (friends, siblings, that one really cool aunt who might have had a girlfriend at one point in the 90s) and not out to others (parents, employers, etc.). As long as the people you are out to know that there are groups of people you aren't out to and don't want to be, this is a totally livable situation for many people.
You said that you're a college sophomore. Is home close to school? Do you commute or live away from home?
I'm sorry that you're in this situation. Unfortunately, I am all too familiar with my sexuality not being accepted by family members. I can give you some advice on navigating this, but ultimately you have to make a decision- whether that means not coming out to your family (which doesn't mean you have to stay totally in the closet!) or coming out to them and risking the consequences.
What does your network of support look like? Are you out to anyone in your friend group? Are there people in your life who you know would support you if you did come out to your family?
I agree with you, that forcing yourself to marry a man and have kids with him is not a good idea- what's the correlation between this and coming out to your family? Is there pressure from your family to marry and have kids in the near future?
"Middle ground," to lots of LGBTQ+ people, often looks like being out to certain groups of people (friends, siblings, that one really cool aunt who might have had a girlfriend at one point in the 90s) and not out to others (parents, employers, etc.). As long as the people you are out to know that there are groups of people you aren't out to and don't want to be, this is a totally livable situation for many people.
You said that you're a college sophomore. Is home close to school? Do you commute or live away from home?
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
I am sort of out to one person in my friend group and have given other hints in conversation that I'm definitely not straight with other friends. I didn't really make it clear what I thought I was though. I definitely feel that the school I'm in is supportive, though it's very conservative and only recently started actively supporting its queer community. I think coming out to my family would be terrible really because the likely scenario is that they become convinced that America has "spoilt" me and take me back to my homophobic country and take away much of the freedom I've enjoyed.
On the home question, I have multiple homes really. My parents live across the Atlantic where I'm from, I stay on campus during the school year and during holidays, I stay with many different relatives and family friends - mostly my aunt who lives on the East Coast with her husband, children, and other relatives who stay there from time to time.
About the marriage question, my culture values the traditional and there is always the assumption that everyone wants to get married and that those who don't get married are damaged in some way. I don't think anyone expects me to be married soon and I could give excuses for the next six years since I currently plan to go to medical school. I was just worrying about the future especially because my cousin recently asked me when I wanted to have kids and my cousins are always talking about celebrities' marriage and children and thinking about the lives they plan to have. I feel like I would be more open to marriage with a woman actually so that was how the whole question correlates with sexuality.
Sort of a diversion. Part of me feels like there's no point to all this because my sexuality might change on a few years and I might just not want anything to do with women romantically. But at the same time I feel like any change to my sexuality would likely be in the opposite direction - towards exclusive homosexuality. This is another thing that worries me in the whole figuring out what I with my identity thing.
On the home question, I have multiple homes really. My parents live across the Atlantic where I'm from, I stay on campus during the school year and during holidays, I stay with many different relatives and family friends - mostly my aunt who lives on the East Coast with her husband, children, and other relatives who stay there from time to time.
About the marriage question, my culture values the traditional and there is always the assumption that everyone wants to get married and that those who don't get married are damaged in some way. I don't think anyone expects me to be married soon and I could give excuses for the next six years since I currently plan to go to medical school. I was just worrying about the future especially because my cousin recently asked me when I wanted to have kids and my cousins are always talking about celebrities' marriage and children and thinking about the lives they plan to have. I feel like I would be more open to marriage with a woman actually so that was how the whole question correlates with sexuality.
Sort of a diversion. Part of me feels like there's no point to all this because my sexuality might change on a few years and I might just not want anything to do with women romantically. But at the same time I feel like any change to my sexuality would likely be in the opposite direction - towards exclusive homosexuality. This is another thing that worries me in the whole figuring out what I with my identity thing.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi radicallyunique! It sounds like you're in a complicated situation, and I'm really sorry that your family do not feel like a safe place in which you can be out right now. Coming out can be pretty complex, as you don't really come out only once -- you're constantly coming out, to different degrees, with different people. So when you have a friend and/or school community that feels like a place you may consider being out in, but a family life in which you'd very much like to keep silent about your sexuality, it can make it a difficult balancing act. As Danny S. said, these choices are your own to make so we can't tell you what to do here, but we can help you sort out the kinds of questions to consider.
You're expressing fear that coming out to your family may lead them to pull you out from school in the States, which would be a detriment to your education (and social life as you would be removed from all your friends). That's a valid reason to feel like you shouldn't come out, and if you sense that that is a real concern, coming out to them may not be a safe choice right now. It sucks, oh how much it sucks -- but coming out to the different people in your life is all about weighing the pros and cons, and assessing how supportive they would be, and what effects it might have on your life. In an ideal world, we could all be openly true to ourselves, but in this world we also have to take care of ourselves and stay safe; so we need to assess which people in our lives would be safe to come out to. That's something that we as queer people are constantly evaluating and re-evaluating, hence the idea that you don't only come out once, you're constantly either coming out or staying in the closet with all the people in your life.
As for your other family -- do you have a sense as to whether the aunt you're living with shares your parents' beliefs about same-sex relationships? And you say your school seems like a fairly supportive community; do you see yourself being comfortable coming out to more of your school friends, is that something you might want to do? And does the school have a counsellor to whom you could speak? They may be an excellent resource to get more in-person support.
You're expressing fear that coming out to your family may lead them to pull you out from school in the States, which would be a detriment to your education (and social life as you would be removed from all your friends). That's a valid reason to feel like you shouldn't come out, and if you sense that that is a real concern, coming out to them may not be a safe choice right now. It sucks, oh how much it sucks -- but coming out to the different people in your life is all about weighing the pros and cons, and assessing how supportive they would be, and what effects it might have on your life. In an ideal world, we could all be openly true to ourselves, but in this world we also have to take care of ourselves and stay safe; so we need to assess which people in our lives would be safe to come out to. That's something that we as queer people are constantly evaluating and re-evaluating, hence the idea that you don't only come out once, you're constantly either coming out or staying in the closet with all the people in your life.
As for your other family -- do you have a sense as to whether the aunt you're living with shares your parents' beliefs about same-sex relationships? And you say your school seems like a fairly supportive community; do you see yourself being comfortable coming out to more of your school friends, is that something you might want to do? And does the school have a counsellor to whom you could speak? They may be an excellent resource to get more in-person support.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
My whole family really is pretty much the same as regards views on same-sex relationships. And I think they are even more opposed to anything other than strictly gay because they feel that sexuality is a choice. To be honest, I have been very different from my family for a while and have successfully done this without them finding out, so I'm not too worried at least for the near future. I just fear the far off one, because at some point living a double life would be exhausting. Hopefully if I have to, I would be financially dependent by then.
I think the real reason that I haven't said much to other people is that I'm just afraid of it being real. I read a few articles, here for example, and feel confident that there is nothing wrong with me but i still find myself automatically reacting negatively to same-sex relationships. Based on that, I'm wondering, how can I get rid of these negative associations? I used to stick with them because they were religious and cultural but I am not religious anymore and I don't really feel at home with my cultural values anymore. How can I fully get rid of these wrong messages that I was taught for all my childhood?
I currently am seeing a therapist in the school for social anxiety disorder and depression, which is mostly unrelated to these issues. One reason why I still haven't talked about this with her is because I'm just scared that I'll get more mental health problems. I wonder if it is possible that I could go through this whole process without unraveling the progress I've made in other parts of my life?
Sorry if this is wordy. Thanks
I think the real reason that I haven't said much to other people is that I'm just afraid of it being real. I read a few articles, here for example, and feel confident that there is nothing wrong with me but i still find myself automatically reacting negatively to same-sex relationships. Based on that, I'm wondering, how can I get rid of these negative associations? I used to stick with them because they were religious and cultural but I am not religious anymore and I don't really feel at home with my cultural values anymore. How can I fully get rid of these wrong messages that I was taught for all my childhood?
I currently am seeing a therapist in the school for social anxiety disorder and depression, which is mostly unrelated to these issues. One reason why I still haven't talked about this with her is because I'm just scared that I'll get more mental health problems. I wonder if it is possible that I could go through this whole process without unraveling the progress I've made in other parts of my life?
Sorry if this is wordy. Thanks
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
No problem at all, we're here to talk, so you can talk as much or as little as you want
I'm sorry to hear that your whole family is totally against anything other than heterosexuality. That's a tough situation to be in. The fact that you're still remaining true to yourself and not only surviving but thriving shows that you're an amazingly strong person! If you're worried about the future, do you think it would help you if you were to make a long-term safety plan aiming to become independent of your family so that you do not have to rely on them, and thus stay silent, for any longer than you need to? I know for some people, having a long-term goal can help by being a sort of "light at the end of the tunnel," knowing they can be totally free in a few years -- if that's something you feel would help, we have some resources right here on the site that can guide you in that, and we can also talk about that here if you want, too.
Having grown up in an environment that is strongly homophobic, it's no surprise that you still have ingrained internalized homophobia. It's pretty much impossible to grow up in a situation like that and NOT be influenced in some way. That doesn't make you a bad person at all. But unfortunately, this is something that takes time. You spent years having those ideas ingrained; it won't be able to be undone overnight.
But there are some things that can really help you on that track. For example, deliberately seeking out media by, for, and about, non-heterosexual characters, as well as reading non-fiction content, like blog posts, etc, by and about queer people. Exposing ourselves to a wider demographic of views and experiences helps us to open up our minds and normalize those people -- they no longer are a mystical, unknown "other." Also making sure to try your best to notice whenever you have a thought that is rooted in internalized homophobia, and gently correcting yourself. Don't beat yourself up about it -- like I said, growing up in the environment that you did is bound to have an effect. But remind yourself that those thoughts aren't accurate, and think about the evidence you have (whether personal, statistical, whatever) that the opposite is true. Over time, you'll get better at noticing those thoughts and correcting them, and then you'll have them less and less.
Do you feel that your therapist would be supportive if you were to talk to them about this? Typically, talking about our sexual orientation and issues with support from family doesn't tend to give us more mental health problems; suppressing our concerns and needs is what leads to things like depression. In fact, having a safe place where you can talk through these things may well help improve your mental health overall. So, if you feel confident that your school therapist would be a safe person to talk to about this, I would suggest maybe giving that a go.
In my own experience with mental health and therapy, progress is less of a straight line and more of a .... hectic sort of mountain? Sometimes when an issue crops up somewhere else, other old crap that we thought we'd dealt with and got over will come back to haunt us and we'll have more to work through. But that doesn't mean that we are unravelling the progress we've made. What it means is that progress is hard, and messy, and sometimes when you're making the most progress is when you're feeling totally confused and shitty and like you're falling down a mountain -- or climbing up it.
I'm sorry to hear that your whole family is totally against anything other than heterosexuality. That's a tough situation to be in. The fact that you're still remaining true to yourself and not only surviving but thriving shows that you're an amazingly strong person! If you're worried about the future, do you think it would help you if you were to make a long-term safety plan aiming to become independent of your family so that you do not have to rely on them, and thus stay silent, for any longer than you need to? I know for some people, having a long-term goal can help by being a sort of "light at the end of the tunnel," knowing they can be totally free in a few years -- if that's something you feel would help, we have some resources right here on the site that can guide you in that, and we can also talk about that here if you want, too.
Having grown up in an environment that is strongly homophobic, it's no surprise that you still have ingrained internalized homophobia. It's pretty much impossible to grow up in a situation like that and NOT be influenced in some way. That doesn't make you a bad person at all. But unfortunately, this is something that takes time. You spent years having those ideas ingrained; it won't be able to be undone overnight.
But there are some things that can really help you on that track. For example, deliberately seeking out media by, for, and about, non-heterosexual characters, as well as reading non-fiction content, like blog posts, etc, by and about queer people. Exposing ourselves to a wider demographic of views and experiences helps us to open up our minds and normalize those people -- they no longer are a mystical, unknown "other." Also making sure to try your best to notice whenever you have a thought that is rooted in internalized homophobia, and gently correcting yourself. Don't beat yourself up about it -- like I said, growing up in the environment that you did is bound to have an effect. But remind yourself that those thoughts aren't accurate, and think about the evidence you have (whether personal, statistical, whatever) that the opposite is true. Over time, you'll get better at noticing those thoughts and correcting them, and then you'll have them less and less.
Do you feel that your therapist would be supportive if you were to talk to them about this? Typically, talking about our sexual orientation and issues with support from family doesn't tend to give us more mental health problems; suppressing our concerns and needs is what leads to things like depression. In fact, having a safe place where you can talk through these things may well help improve your mental health overall. So, if you feel confident that your school therapist would be a safe person to talk to about this, I would suggest maybe giving that a go.
In my own experience with mental health and therapy, progress is less of a straight line and more of a .... hectic sort of mountain? Sometimes when an issue crops up somewhere else, other old crap that we thought we'd dealt with and got over will come back to haunt us and we'll have more to work through. But that doesn't mean that we are unravelling the progress we've made. What it means is that progress is hard, and messy, and sometimes when you're making the most progress is when you're feeling totally confused and shitty and like you're falling down a mountain -- or climbing up it.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
So a little bit of an update on this. I'm considering coming out to my closest friend from high school that I could talk about stuff that other people disapprove of. I ended up asking how he felt about gay people and he got into saying that he doesn't understand how someone can be sexually attracted to someone of the same sex as them. And that perhaps circumstances forced them to be that way. That opinion was a bit disappointing but I feel like it's to be expected and honestly, he is the only one right now that I'm close to that isn't wholly homophobic. Do you think it's a good idea to tell him or should I get a feel of his attitudes more or do you think I'll have to explain my bisexuality? I'm just kind of confused about how I could go from here because I just want some support from someone who actually knows a lot about me in all of this.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi Radicallyunique,
I'm sorry that your friend turned out to be less accepting than you were hoping he'd be. Feeling him out a bit more is definitely an option. I think, if you're weighing telling him, you'd have to consider the possibility that he won't be supportive in the way you need right now, and how you'd deal with any rejection that comes along with your disclosure. Too, do you think he will honor your need to keep your identity concealed from a lot of people right now?
You mention the climate at school being more supportive than the one back home. Do you know if there are any LGBTQ spaces or groups you could connect to through school? That would give you a space where you can feel supported and safe being out.
I'm sorry that your friend turned out to be less accepting than you were hoping he'd be. Feeling him out a bit more is definitely an option. I think, if you're weighing telling him, you'd have to consider the possibility that he won't be supportive in the way you need right now, and how you'd deal with any rejection that comes along with your disclosure. Too, do you think he will honor your need to keep your identity concealed from a lot of people right now?
You mention the climate at school being more supportive than the one back home. Do you know if there are any LGBTQ spaces or groups you could connect to through school? That would give you a space where you can feel supported and safe being out.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
I feel that you are right about it not necessarily being a good choice to tell him right now. It's just a bit of a bummer because I wanted someone that I knew from before on my side. I'm also wondering if you think that he might change in the future and if I should keep arguing with him. I don't even know that I want to. His reasoning is that men primarily want sex and women want emotions to be with sex so perhaps lesbians are possible (since in his opinion women don't need sex) but not gay men. The most annoying part is that he then said I can't know that sexual intercourse is not the best possible sex because I haven't had it which is just wrong on so many levels. I also realized that it might be even harder to say that I am bisexual and am sexually attracted to women because it doesn't fit into his theory. I feel that he might say something like why would I want a woman if I can be satisfied with a man? It just feels like more stress than it's worth.
Anyway, I am quite terrified of the LGBTQ group on campus because I feel like they're probably all friends and totally used to their orientation while I freak out about mine every few weeks. I'm also really scared to talk to new people and I have only just managed to make regular plans with friends to get is closer. I'm still learning how to act in social interactions and talking about orientation at all even about someone else's makes me insanely uncomfortable.
On the bright side, I'm talking to someone in the office of gender relations at my school that I know because I work with them. It's not the person specifically for LGBTQ issues because I'm scared of her too but I think she's great and that's fine. I also plan on finally telling my therapist about all this today and perhaps work on my anxiety around it.
I also think I might try with someone else from my high school that I feel might be more accepting now.
Anyway, I am quite terrified of the LGBTQ group on campus because I feel like they're probably all friends and totally used to their orientation while I freak out about mine every few weeks. I'm also really scared to talk to new people and I have only just managed to make regular plans with friends to get is closer. I'm still learning how to act in social interactions and talking about orientation at all even about someone else's makes me insanely uncomfortable.
On the bright side, I'm talking to someone in the office of gender relations at my school that I know because I work with them. It's not the person specifically for LGBTQ issues because I'm scared of her too but I think she's great and that's fine. I also plan on finally telling my therapist about all this today and perhaps work on my anxiety around it.
I also think I might try with someone else from my high school that I feel might be more accepting now.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
You're right that it's a bummer that someone you were hoping you could talk to about something sensitive turns out to not be supportive. As for whether to continue debating him, that's really up to you and how much time and energy you want to invest in possibly altering his perspective. I would say that you might have to hack through multiple layers of misconceptions, since it sounds like his views on sexual orientation are tied to some off-base beliefs about gender.
With the campus LGBTQ group, something that might help is to think about how most people there have gone through what you're going through, and that some of them may still be dealing with these same issues (as someone said upthread, coming out is really a life long process). What that means is that they're far, far more likely to look at you with empathy than with judgement. It does sound like you've got some anxiety about socializing in general that you're working on with your counselor. I would definitely recommend adding the LGBTQ piece into the mix and seeing if they can help you get to a place where you're comfortable seeking out that community.
Is the LGBTQ group based out of an LGBTQ center on campus? Or are they a free-floating group that meets at different places.
With the campus LGBTQ group, something that might help is to think about how most people there have gone through what you're going through, and that some of them may still be dealing with these same issues (as someone said upthread, coming out is really a life long process). What that means is that they're far, far more likely to look at you with empathy than with judgement. It does sound like you've got some anxiety about socializing in general that you're working on with your counselor. I would definitely recommend adding the LGBTQ piece into the mix and seeing if they can help you get to a place where you're comfortable seeking out that community.
Is the LGBTQ group based out of an LGBTQ center on campus? Or are they a free-floating group that meets at different places.
And you to whom adversity has dealt the final blow/with smiling bastards lying to you everywhere you go/turn to and put out all your strength of arm and heart and brain/and like the Mary Ellen Carter rise again.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi again. I decided to lay off on talking to my friend for a while because I don't feel like it is really helpful to me. I told my therapist a little about the LGBTQ issues but we haven't really discussed that in the past few weeks because I had a pretty dramatic crisis. But now that I am out of that, I think I really want to focus more on trying to feel comfortable correcting people when they assume my sexuality and more of the everyday coming out's. I think that making it an event really scares me because then that becomes the conversation and I feel that mentioning it casually with people whose opinions I do not really care about might be a good first step in talking about it. The problem that I have is I feel weird saying the word bisexual, even though I feel that it best represents me. And sometimes when I've mentioned that I was not straight, I feel like people have assumed that I was gay and then I'd have to correct them again. I was wondering if I could get help thinking up stuff to say that solves this
The campus has a center that deals with gender identity, relationships, interpersonal violence prevention and sexual identity but there is no separate LGBTQ center just a person in the general center that specializes in that. The LGBTQ group on campus is loosely connected to that general center - their resource person is the general center specialist, they do a lot of events together and a lot of students who work for the general center are in the LGBTQ group. I do some programming with the general center but have not been to any of the LGBTQ group's events. The LGBTQ has a regular weekly meeting and I can easily find out the details of that if I asked.
The campus has a center that deals with gender identity, relationships, interpersonal violence prevention and sexual identity but there is no separate LGBTQ center just a person in the general center that specializes in that. The LGBTQ group on campus is loosely connected to that general center - their resource person is the general center specialist, they do a lot of events together and a lot of students who work for the general center are in the LGBTQ group. I do some programming with the general center but have not been to any of the LGBTQ group's events. The LGBTQ has a regular weekly meeting and I can easily find out the details of that if I asked.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
The regular LGBTQ group meeting sounds like it could be a good place to start, if you're comfortable with that, and it could be a great environment to practice mentioning that you're bisexual, too.
Before I make any more suggestions about how those casual conversations could go, can I ask what kind of context you're envisioning this happening in? Who have you mentioned it to so far, and how did those discussions go?
Before I make any more suggestions about how those casual conversations could go, can I ask what kind of context you're envisioning this happening in? Who have you mentioned it to so far, and how did those discussions go?
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Yeah. Like I said before, the LGBTQ group is really not where my comfort level is at. There are too many people, some of which I know, I would be the subject of conversation, and I just can't handle that. What I've been trying to do with my social anxiety is do the things that are a bit uncomfortable that I am not too worried about. In general, I am uncomfortable with making my sexual orientation the subject of conversation, even with people like my therapist that I am mostly comfortable with. I am not so worried about rejection, because I usually know what people's opinions are and if someone had a really negative reaction, I'd stop talking to them.
I have a couple of acquaintances, who'd probably refer to me as a friend even though they do not know much about me, that I talk to often. In conversations with these people, a lot of times I have said something about relationships and attraction and had the assumption be that I was talking about a guy. An example was when I was explaining how people in my mother's ethnic group get married to someone, and she asked me about my marriage to a guy. Saying something in that situation is more of the context I was talking about. So far, I've only said that I was bisexual twice - with two people that I now consider my friends. The first was a more traditional coming out conversation and the second was more casual and when we were talking about Mike Pence. With the first person, I am still uncomfortable with mentioning my orientation at all, even though I still talk to her. I found that it was easy to talk to the second person about sexuality in general, so the topic has come up more in my conversations with her. Beyond these, I've mentioned orientation a few more times sort of vaguely, like correcting someone who said that everyone needs a boy, and mentioning my homophobic parents not accepting me.
I have a couple of acquaintances, who'd probably refer to me as a friend even though they do not know much about me, that I talk to often. In conversations with these people, a lot of times I have said something about relationships and attraction and had the assumption be that I was talking about a guy. An example was when I was explaining how people in my mother's ethnic group get married to someone, and she asked me about my marriage to a guy. Saying something in that situation is more of the context I was talking about. So far, I've only said that I was bisexual twice - with two people that I now consider my friends. The first was a more traditional coming out conversation and the second was more casual and when we were talking about Mike Pence. With the first person, I am still uncomfortable with mentioning my orientation at all, even though I still talk to her. I found that it was easy to talk to the second person about sexuality in general, so the topic has come up more in my conversations with her. Beyond these, I've mentioned orientation a few more times sort of vaguely, like correcting someone who said that everyone needs a boy, and mentioning my homophobic parents not accepting me.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi, If you think it's a better idea for me to try with the LGBTQ group on campus, I guess I could work towards that. I just really want to be making some progress right now before I feel fully comfortable with that. Do you think with the more casual conversations I could say something like,"Not necessarily a guy because I'm kind of bisexual" or might that be awkward? I just really need someone to talk this through with because it's scary in real life and I'm really worrying about it.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi radicallyunique, I'm so sorry it took me a while to get back to you.
If you'd rather not go to the LGBTQ group right now, that's totally understandable. As someone with social anxiety myself, I get wanting to push yourself past your comfort zone just a little bit at a time - maybe that group might be something to think about in the future, but if it's not where you're at right now, there's no reason to force yourself into a really uncomfortable situation!
Bringing up your orientation in more casual conversations like you've described sounds like a good step. It may be a bit awkward, which is something to be prepared for, although the potential awkwardness is more likely to be due to how the person you're talking to might react rather than the wording itself. Orientation can be a bit awkward for a lot of people to discuss, and some folks get a little uncomfortable even when it's brought up as a topic. It's very possible that once you mention that you're bisexual, they'll want to keep talking about it, or ask you a bunch of questions, so I'd suggest having a planned response in mind that makes it clear that you'd rather not go into detail; something along the lines of, "By the way, my sexual orientation isn't really something I want to discuss at length right now, I'll let you know if that changes."
If you'd rather not go to the LGBTQ group right now, that's totally understandable. As someone with social anxiety myself, I get wanting to push yourself past your comfort zone just a little bit at a time - maybe that group might be something to think about in the future, but if it's not where you're at right now, there's no reason to force yourself into a really uncomfortable situation!
Bringing up your orientation in more casual conversations like you've described sounds like a good step. It may be a bit awkward, which is something to be prepared for, although the potential awkwardness is more likely to be due to how the person you're talking to might react rather than the wording itself. Orientation can be a bit awkward for a lot of people to discuss, and some folks get a little uncomfortable even when it's brought up as a topic. It's very possible that once you mention that you're bisexual, they'll want to keep talking about it, or ask you a bunch of questions, so I'd suggest having a planned response in mind that makes it clear that you'd rather not go into detail; something along the lines of, "By the way, my sexual orientation isn't really something I want to discuss at length right now, I'll let you know if that changes."
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
I think I could try that. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Good luck! I hope it goes well.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi! My name is Aaron. I've been living with the fear of rejection for a while. I get where you're coming from. A huge thing that I think could really make a difference is this: Don't come out to anyone unless you have fully come out to yourself. You need to become so confident in yourself that no matter what anyone says, they cant hurt you or make you stray from who you are. TRUST ME, after you come out to people completely, it doesn't matter what they think as long as you are living the most authentic life possible it will be worth it. I really hope you found this helpful!
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi Karyn and everyone else that has replied,
I have this weird issue of not really having a word that perfectly fits me that's been coming up when I try to discuss my orientation.
I feel that the definition of the word bisexual is really the most understandable and closest way of communicating what I am. Yet most days, I feel gay. A lot of times it is a response to heteronormativity and not having my same sex attractions recognized. I just feel like screaming out "I'm gay" at times, like when I read women's magazines and they assume I'm straight, or the time when someone I knew kept talking about the complementarity of mothers and fathers in a very restrictively gendered way or to the friend who, when I said that I was uncomfortable with abortion but would still have one if I ever got accidentally pregnant, suggested that I just should not have sex. I don't feel like "bisexual" has the same disruptive power in these cases as "gay" does and "queer" is not as well known. However, I feel like saying I'm gay is confusing and leads to further conversations where I have to explain the fact that I am also attracted to men and non-binary people. Also, sometimes I feel like I am mostly attracted to women, but it is not an exact science. These days, I say some combination of I am not straight and I am very attracted to women which I feel like eventually will cause more confusion if I got a boyfriend, for instance.
I wonder if a solution might be me getting more comfortable with the word queer and having to explain it each time. I'm just really confused and need help.
LGBTQllama, I guess with my parents and family it's not so much a fear of rejection than of consequences, like me ending up back in my country or something as drastic. With people around me, I mostly am uncomfortable with the idea of them thinking of me as different. I worry that if I keep bringing up my sexual orientation, people would see me as really different from them and not feel like we're compatible. So I guess that that's somewhat the fear of rejection just a bit different from what you imagine . The thing about being my authentic self sounds like a good recommendation, though. It just happens to be my major struggle in terms of social anxiety, which I am working on in therapy. But, thanks for the suggestion.
I have this weird issue of not really having a word that perfectly fits me that's been coming up when I try to discuss my orientation.
I feel that the definition of the word bisexual is really the most understandable and closest way of communicating what I am. Yet most days, I feel gay. A lot of times it is a response to heteronormativity and not having my same sex attractions recognized. I just feel like screaming out "I'm gay" at times, like when I read women's magazines and they assume I'm straight, or the time when someone I knew kept talking about the complementarity of mothers and fathers in a very restrictively gendered way or to the friend who, when I said that I was uncomfortable with abortion but would still have one if I ever got accidentally pregnant, suggested that I just should not have sex. I don't feel like "bisexual" has the same disruptive power in these cases as "gay" does and "queer" is not as well known. However, I feel like saying I'm gay is confusing and leads to further conversations where I have to explain the fact that I am also attracted to men and non-binary people. Also, sometimes I feel like I am mostly attracted to women, but it is not an exact science. These days, I say some combination of I am not straight and I am very attracted to women which I feel like eventually will cause more confusion if I got a boyfriend, for instance.
I wonder if a solution might be me getting more comfortable with the word queer and having to explain it each time. I'm just really confused and need help.
LGBTQllama, I guess with my parents and family it's not so much a fear of rejection than of consequences, like me ending up back in my country or something as drastic. With people around me, I mostly am uncomfortable with the idea of them thinking of me as different. I worry that if I keep bringing up my sexual orientation, people would see me as really different from them and not feel like we're compatible. So I guess that that's somewhat the fear of rejection just a bit different from what you imagine . The thing about being my authentic self sounds like a good recommendation, though. It just happens to be my major struggle in terms of social anxiety, which I am working on in therapy. But, thanks for the suggestion.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi radicallyunique!
I guess there is never going to be one word which capures everything about your orientation, and it will change. It might also be the case that this mis-match of definitions effects everybody else too. How straight are your straight friends? How gay or bi or queer are all those folks?
The way you write about it reminds me of mine and al's comic: Are We Like Pies? - Essentially there we speak through how we have come to grapple with our identities and the ways that words can be something that shifts. I don't know if it'd help you to read how other people go through these struggles too?
Anyway it sounds like you have a really in-depth grip on what so many of these terms mean to you and that's really powerful! You may just need to accept a certain amount of imperfection when it comes to communication, we are always interpreting eachother. It's less technical drawing and more abstract expressionism.
I guess there is never going to be one word which capures everything about your orientation, and it will change. It might also be the case that this mis-match of definitions effects everybody else too. How straight are your straight friends? How gay or bi or queer are all those folks?
The way you write about it reminds me of mine and al's comic: Are We Like Pies? - Essentially there we speak through how we have come to grapple with our identities and the ways that words can be something that shifts. I don't know if it'd help you to read how other people go through these struggles too?
Anyway it sounds like you have a really in-depth grip on what so many of these terms mean to you and that's really powerful! You may just need to accept a certain amount of imperfection when it comes to communication, we are always interpreting eachother. It's less technical drawing and more abstract expressionism.
"In between two tall mountains there's a place they call lonesome.
Don't see why they call it lonesome.
I'm never lonesome when I go there." Connie Converse - Talkin' Like You
Don't see why they call it lonesome.
I'm never lonesome when I go there." Connie Converse - Talkin' Like You
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Also for what it's worth... If you'd like an it gets better story - I came from a similar household.
I never had a big dramatic coming-out... There were a lot of issues, coming out would have been confrontational and maybe not even safe for me... Now that I have been away from home for a few years I feel like it's my choice which parts of my life I let them see and that might build a better relationship where maybe i can share more and they can understand more. It's obviously not super close but that is what feels healthiest even if we never get to that place. I'm totally cool with that given the circumstances!
I never had a big dramatic coming-out... There were a lot of issues, coming out would have been confrontational and maybe not even safe for me... Now that I have been away from home for a few years I feel like it's my choice which parts of my life I let them see and that might build a better relationship where maybe i can share more and they can understand more. It's obviously not super close but that is what feels healthiest even if we never get to that place. I'm totally cool with that given the circumstances!
"In between two tall mountains there's a place they call lonesome.
Don't see why they call it lonesome.
I'm never lonesome when I go there." Connie Converse - Talkin' Like You
Don't see why they call it lonesome.
I'm never lonesome when I go there." Connie Converse - Talkin' Like You
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi Jacob
Yeah. The"it gets better" story actually helps. I know I could probably keep it a secret from them. It's just I've gotten a lot closer to my mom in general, because I like her so much except for the unbending homophobia. I hate knowing that something I am could make her love me less. Some days it is really sad though I hardly ever admit it to myself. In any case, I know that she loves me, which is good enough for me right now. Maybe sometime soon, I'll be comfortable enough to argue her opinions about gay people and just let her think I am an ally. I probably won't get anywhere. And, my gayness is tied to so many other revelations about myself. I wish I could be like I don't hate gay people but I'm still Christian or am still completely against premarital sex. There are just so many lies tied together for the sake of peace. I feel like if I give a little on one the whole lie castle will fall apart.I guess I could just make another family that would be completely okay with my sexuality in general. Your story gives me some hope that I could become somewhat closer to her in that aspect. I was wondering if you could go a little into what parts of yourself you share if you're comfortable with that. I want some idea of what my life would look like since my mom's going to be in my life for a while.
To completely change the topic, I kind of get the point of the comic. Maybe I could just identify as a gay bisexual queer person even if that makes no sense to anyone else. I feel like each of the three words represent the way I feel most of the time and I could choose one when I feel like it. And honestly, the thing you say about communication is so true. I just get so caught up in my perfectionism. So what if people think I'm exclusively lesbian sometimes? If they stick around long enough, they'll learn all about the complexity that is me. I think I'll be bisexual if I have to tick a box, gay in my conversations with people and queer all the time. I'll have to write this down so I remember the next time I freak out about my sexual orientation. The next time I come out I'll just say, "I am attracted to feminine people/women with beautiful shoes, masculine people/men with necklaces on, and non-binary people in suits."
Yeah. The"it gets better" story actually helps. I know I could probably keep it a secret from them. It's just I've gotten a lot closer to my mom in general, because I like her so much except for the unbending homophobia. I hate knowing that something I am could make her love me less. Some days it is really sad though I hardly ever admit it to myself. In any case, I know that she loves me, which is good enough for me right now. Maybe sometime soon, I'll be comfortable enough to argue her opinions about gay people and just let her think I am an ally. I probably won't get anywhere. And, my gayness is tied to so many other revelations about myself. I wish I could be like I don't hate gay people but I'm still Christian or am still completely against premarital sex. There are just so many lies tied together for the sake of peace. I feel like if I give a little on one the whole lie castle will fall apart.I guess I could just make another family that would be completely okay with my sexuality in general. Your story gives me some hope that I could become somewhat closer to her in that aspect. I was wondering if you could go a little into what parts of yourself you share if you're comfortable with that. I want some idea of what my life would look like since my mom's going to be in my life for a while.
To completely change the topic, I kind of get the point of the comic. Maybe I could just identify as a gay bisexual queer person even if that makes no sense to anyone else. I feel like each of the three words represent the way I feel most of the time and I could choose one when I feel like it. And honestly, the thing you say about communication is so true. I just get so caught up in my perfectionism. So what if people think I'm exclusively lesbian sometimes? If they stick around long enough, they'll learn all about the complexity that is me. I think I'll be bisexual if I have to tick a box, gay in my conversations with people and queer all the time. I'll have to write this down so I remember the next time I freak out about my sexual orientation. The next time I come out I'll just say, "I am attracted to feminine people/women with beautiful shoes, masculine people/men with necklaces on, and non-binary people in suits."
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hey again!
I just wanted to post this on here because I feel like I've gotten a ton of assistance in my coming out process on these boards.
So I feel like I have gotten to a good place with my sexuality in general. I have become an active member of the LGBTQ group at my school and plan to go to those meetings regularly. Ive become okay with the complexity about the words I use to describe my sexual orientation. These days I just say I'm gay and expatiate further that by definition, I'm bisexual if the conversation goes further but I'm okay with people assuming I'm exclusively okay. I did end up telling my closest friend about my sexuality and he had a way better reaction to it than I expected. He was more curious than anything and we had a nice conversation about gender expression and identity afterwards and I think I might have opened up his ideas about gender a little bit.
These days I'm more focused on dealing with how my sexual orientation interacts with my social anxiety and I want to be more comfortable with telling people stuff about myself generally and that includes my sexual orientation.
The idea that I had to make sort of an exposure and a coming out (two birds with one stone) was using this newspaper my dorm has. So every week on Wednesday, there is like an A5 paper "newspaper" posted in the bathrooms and around the dorms. In it there is a dorm member of the week and a couple of questions about them. Like favorite book, embarrassing moment and ideal spouse (like a celebrity or something). I'd always been a little afraid of having to answer the spouse question since I've only ever had female celebrity crushes (cause I like feminine guys and I don't feel like that's a popular aesthetic for popular straight guys). It's also a little scarier for me 'this year because last year it said "spouse" and this year it says "husband". So I already asked the person in charge if I could do the next week, and I am going to put a female celeb for the ideal spouse question.
However, i still find the whole thing a little scary. I'm not at all worried about my safety 'cos all the RA's have ally badges on their doors and I've never encountered anyone who's been more than mildly homophobic. Also I sort of feel like if anyone was untoward that the school would support me as against the person. I'm also not worried about them telling other people because that's kind of what the point was. There is only one person at this school that has any connection to my back home life and I almost never see her so I don't think she'll know anything since our social circles don't really intersect. The one thing I'm worried about is that people who already know me would change their opinion of me based on this new information and think of me in association with whatever stereotype they have about queer people. I'm also a little worried that they'd start acting differently around me especially one friend that I have that is the queen of microaggressions. She's always making little casually racist comments like saying that she could never marry a black guy cause her children would end up having really dark brown eyes and she would want them to have "pretty" eyes. She didn't say it quite like that but that was basically the gist of it. She's also made a couple of hooded comments about queer people. The funny thing about it is that she thinks of herself as quite progressive so she'd never consciously admit that she is a little homophobic. Therefore, if she found out that I am gay, she'd probably not have a noticeably negative reaction to it but it would subconsciously affect the way our interactions go.
With people like that, I have tended to speak in they/them when talking about people I'm attracted to and avoided talking about marriage and straightness. On the one hand, I hate the fact that I'm constantly concealing parts of myself to make other people comfortable. It's just like a general thing I do, not just sexuality wise and I feel like trying self-disclosure with my sexuality might make me feel better about the whole self-disclosure thing. I've tried telling myself that I'm allowed to be selective in choosing my friends. But I think I'm way too used to accommodating homophobic people since my whole family is pretty homophobic. That's kind of why I wanted to create a supportive group of friends that know in this school where I feel safe.
I'm basically super perplexed. I'm not sure whether this is a good idea or not. The fact that I'm definitely going to be on the dorm newspaper doesn't mean I have to use it as an outing moment. I just don't want to miss my chance to conquer my fear.
TL;DR I want to do something that's kind of a mass coming out. I don't think anyone would react negatively. I'm worried about how it would affect people that already know me. I still want to do it because I'm super tired of all the self-censoring and I want to get comfortable being myself with my friends.
PS. I would talk about this with my therapist that I've worked with before but he doesn't know much about my sexual identity and I'll have to give him a ton of background so he could understand where I am right now. I still might. I just wanted to get some opinions here because I can't see him just yet.
I just wanted to post this on here because I feel like I've gotten a ton of assistance in my coming out process on these boards.
So I feel like I have gotten to a good place with my sexuality in general. I have become an active member of the LGBTQ group at my school and plan to go to those meetings regularly. Ive become okay with the complexity about the words I use to describe my sexual orientation. These days I just say I'm gay and expatiate further that by definition, I'm bisexual if the conversation goes further but I'm okay with people assuming I'm exclusively okay. I did end up telling my closest friend about my sexuality and he had a way better reaction to it than I expected. He was more curious than anything and we had a nice conversation about gender expression and identity afterwards and I think I might have opened up his ideas about gender a little bit.
These days I'm more focused on dealing with how my sexual orientation interacts with my social anxiety and I want to be more comfortable with telling people stuff about myself generally and that includes my sexual orientation.
The idea that I had to make sort of an exposure and a coming out (two birds with one stone) was using this newspaper my dorm has. So every week on Wednesday, there is like an A5 paper "newspaper" posted in the bathrooms and around the dorms. In it there is a dorm member of the week and a couple of questions about them. Like favorite book, embarrassing moment and ideal spouse (like a celebrity or something). I'd always been a little afraid of having to answer the spouse question since I've only ever had female celebrity crushes (cause I like feminine guys and I don't feel like that's a popular aesthetic for popular straight guys). It's also a little scarier for me 'this year because last year it said "spouse" and this year it says "husband". So I already asked the person in charge if I could do the next week, and I am going to put a female celeb for the ideal spouse question.
However, i still find the whole thing a little scary. I'm not at all worried about my safety 'cos all the RA's have ally badges on their doors and I've never encountered anyone who's been more than mildly homophobic. Also I sort of feel like if anyone was untoward that the school would support me as against the person. I'm also not worried about them telling other people because that's kind of what the point was. There is only one person at this school that has any connection to my back home life and I almost never see her so I don't think she'll know anything since our social circles don't really intersect. The one thing I'm worried about is that people who already know me would change their opinion of me based on this new information and think of me in association with whatever stereotype they have about queer people. I'm also a little worried that they'd start acting differently around me especially one friend that I have that is the queen of microaggressions. She's always making little casually racist comments like saying that she could never marry a black guy cause her children would end up having really dark brown eyes and she would want them to have "pretty" eyes. She didn't say it quite like that but that was basically the gist of it. She's also made a couple of hooded comments about queer people. The funny thing about it is that she thinks of herself as quite progressive so she'd never consciously admit that she is a little homophobic. Therefore, if she found out that I am gay, she'd probably not have a noticeably negative reaction to it but it would subconsciously affect the way our interactions go.
With people like that, I have tended to speak in they/them when talking about people I'm attracted to and avoided talking about marriage and straightness. On the one hand, I hate the fact that I'm constantly concealing parts of myself to make other people comfortable. It's just like a general thing I do, not just sexuality wise and I feel like trying self-disclosure with my sexuality might make me feel better about the whole self-disclosure thing. I've tried telling myself that I'm allowed to be selective in choosing my friends. But I think I'm way too used to accommodating homophobic people since my whole family is pretty homophobic. That's kind of why I wanted to create a supportive group of friends that know in this school where I feel safe.
I'm basically super perplexed. I'm not sure whether this is a good idea or not. The fact that I'm definitely going to be on the dorm newspaper doesn't mean I have to use it as an outing moment. I just don't want to miss my chance to conquer my fear.
TL;DR I want to do something that's kind of a mass coming out. I don't think anyone would react negatively. I'm worried about how it would affect people that already know me. I still want to do it because I'm super tired of all the self-censoring and I want to get comfortable being myself with my friends.
PS. I would talk about this with my therapist that I've worked with before but he doesn't know much about my sexual identity and I'll have to give him a ton of background so he could understand where I am right now. I still might. I just wanted to get some opinions here because I can't see him just yet.
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
Hi again, radicallyunique, glad to see you again.
My first thought with this is that coming out in the way you're describing would be a really intimidating idea for a LOT of people, not just for folks with social anxiety. For sure, there are some people who would be okay with it (even if they were a bit nervous) but I think for most people, coming out to a few close friends or family members at a time is a much more manageable thing to do. On top of that, I'm hearing quite a lot of hesitation in what you've said about this, which kind of suggests to me that maybe it's not quite the right strategy for you at this point in time.
I totally get wanting to face your fears, but from where I'm sitting, coming out in a big way to everyone you live with in order to get more comfortable disclosing things about yourself is kind of like someone who's afraid of heights trying to conquer their fear by going skydiving, without really having taken many (if any) smaller steps to build up to something so big. A lot of people with social anxiety (or any kind of anxiety) do work to become more comfortable in situations that make them anxious, but that process is almost always a very gradual one, over a significant period of time, not a process that's one giant leap and then done, if that makes sense.
At the very least, given your very mixed feelings, I would suggest talking to the folks who put this newspaper together and seeing if you can't hold off on being featured for another few weeks, just to give you a chance to talk to your therapist, think it over some more, and maybe talk to some of the other members of the LGBTQ group as well.
My first thought with this is that coming out in the way you're describing would be a really intimidating idea for a LOT of people, not just for folks with social anxiety. For sure, there are some people who would be okay with it (even if they were a bit nervous) but I think for most people, coming out to a few close friends or family members at a time is a much more manageable thing to do. On top of that, I'm hearing quite a lot of hesitation in what you've said about this, which kind of suggests to me that maybe it's not quite the right strategy for you at this point in time.
I totally get wanting to face your fears, but from where I'm sitting, coming out in a big way to everyone you live with in order to get more comfortable disclosing things about yourself is kind of like someone who's afraid of heights trying to conquer their fear by going skydiving, without really having taken many (if any) smaller steps to build up to something so big. A lot of people with social anxiety (or any kind of anxiety) do work to become more comfortable in situations that make them anxious, but that process is almost always a very gradual one, over a significant period of time, not a process that's one giant leap and then done, if that makes sense.
At the very least, given your very mixed feelings, I would suggest talking to the folks who put this newspaper together and seeing if you can't hold off on being featured for another few weeks, just to give you a chance to talk to your therapist, think it over some more, and maybe talk to some of the other members of the LGBTQ group as well.
"Where there is power, there is resistance." -Michel Foucault
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Re: Is Coming Out Worth it?
I'm late to this extended conversation, but I wanted to just toss something general your way that I think might be of value to you, in the event you haven't already done something like this already.
Hopefully, your life will change over time so that you can be as public and open about all this as you'd ideally like to be. But in the meantime, it can actually be really powerful, and feel really big, to just come out BY yourself and with yourself: to give yourself a place, in a word, to go ahead and be in that identity, and be accepted in it.
One way of doing that can be to keep a journal where in the journal, you are out. You can regularly write about (or sketch or doodle, if you're a more visual journaler) yourself and your life with the given that whatever your current sexual identity feels like, that's who you are, it's all good -- even if it's confusing or otherwise challenging -- and it's out to the "person" (the journal) you are writing to. In other words, you can do a sort of regular, ongoing creative exercise like that to do more exploring about who this part of you is and wants to be without feeling the barrier of not being out so much; by freeing yourself of it at least in this creative environment. Make sense?
Hopefully, your life will change over time so that you can be as public and open about all this as you'd ideally like to be. But in the meantime, it can actually be really powerful, and feel really big, to just come out BY yourself and with yourself: to give yourself a place, in a word, to go ahead and be in that identity, and be accepted in it.
One way of doing that can be to keep a journal where in the journal, you are out. You can regularly write about (or sketch or doodle, if you're a more visual journaler) yourself and your life with the given that whatever your current sexual identity feels like, that's who you are, it's all good -- even if it's confusing or otherwise challenging -- and it's out to the "person" (the journal) you are writing to. In other words, you can do a sort of regular, ongoing creative exercise like that to do more exploring about who this part of you is and wants to be without feeling the barrier of not being out so much; by freeing yourself of it at least in this creative environment. Make sense?
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
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