Gender struggles with a relationship

[Emelyn]

Hiii o/ Just looking to talk to someone about this, since it's been on my mind and I don't have anyone I'm comfortable sharing with.

I've had trans feels for a long time, since I was a kid. Started identifying as nonbinary during early teens. I've never wanted to impose on anyone, so it took me a long time to actually change my outward expression. Then when I finally started, I did it very quietly -- by avoiding "coming out" to existing people in my life, and just meeting new people as the new me. (It's so bad to the point where I just quietly transitioned right in front of my immediate family without telling all of them.) All the time, I kept quiet about being nonbinary and just went with however people gendered me (usually the binary). Pretty much everyone still read me as male. Sometimes they'd think I was female, but that was before I was able to fake the voice. Once I spoke, they'd immediately apologize. It felt like a gut punch but I tried to convince myself, it's okay, why do I care what people see me as, I'm just secretly nonbinary inside. But then...

So I'm in a relationship with a girl, have been for a few years. We're in our 20s. (hope I'm not overaged to be here, but I guess this is how long it took to come to terms with it lol) I met her when I was still presenting male and did tell her from the start about being nonbinary, but I didn't want to make a big deal of it. She sees me as a guy, calls me he/him and most people in her life know me as her bf.

And here's the issue... over the past couple years or so, I've been getting gender feels again, except this time I sometimes really feel like presenting femme, being called she/her, being a girl, etc. I also sometimes feel dysphoric about being seen as male. I'm still grappling with understanding/coming to terms with my identity. I don't know what I identify as anymore. But these feelings have been around for long enough that I am sometimes presenting female out in public and some of my social circles see me as a (cis) girl. These days, I am fortunate enough to more or less pass either way, with a few wardrobe changes. I am starting to list female pronouns wherever I dare (BIG step that I was honestly scared of, previously I would just let people call me whatever they saw fit).

Well, my gf is cool with queer folk and has said she'd love me no matter what, but she's attracted to guys, and at the end of the day she still likes being the "woman" in the relationship. I feel like I'm doing her a disservice if I decide to explore this side of myself. I don't want to make her feel uncomfortable, or that she's been dating a faker all this while. I avoid blatantly presenting female when out with her, also because there's a nagging fear about not passing. There was a period of time when I started growing my hair out and looked more femme. That was a super awkward time where I felt bad just holding hands or showing public affection (lesbian is prettyyy taboo in some spaces here). I wish we could just have a normal hetero relationship but silly me can't take being a dude anymore.

She's also said before that she still sees me as a guy and calls me her bf to new people. (She's tried using more neutral terms but people are either hyper aware -- "omg is your partner trans?!" -- or old-fashioned and need to know "girl or boy"). I don't want to make life difficult for her so I've told her it's no biggie to call me that. But lately...I dunno. I am okay with neutral terms. It's just that society is still pretty stuck in the binary and I don't blame them.

I suppose just some insights would be helpful, or a second opinion. I don't want to ruin anything we have just because I couldn't deal with some societal construct that I've been putting up with all this while. Am I just being selfish? Maybe there's a way to deal with being bf to my gf while being a part-time girl (essentially my life atm, it's just difficult and getting found out either way is always at the back of my mind), YET sometimes I feel, ehh maybe it's just easier to stay a guy. There is also still family that doesn't know. I feel like I'm living a dual life...rip that suit off and out comes Supergirl.

tldr I guess, I am a nonbinary who's been quietly living as male, but now having gender feels and wants to start presenting female. Trying to reconcile these parts of life with my relationship and not sure how to navigate through it.

Phew, it got a lot longer than expected. Thanks for reading all this, it's already been a huge weight off my back just organising my thoughts!

[Heather]

Hey there, Emelyn. Welcome to the boards. Our userbase tends to be between 15 and 30, so you're all good!

So, it often is very challenging, all around, for people to transition their gender in most ways inside a relationship, particularly if and when anyone in that relationship isn't a very flexible kind of queer and when anyone involved is cisgender. The worries and struggles you're having are very common: I have had a lot of couples in my life and work go through this over the decades, and I think it's safe to say it's rarely easy for anyone. You are absolutely not being selfish, though. Please hear that.

I would like to first, though, assert some things that I think are essential to be in a relationship in a healthy way in this situation:
1) We need to be able to be ourselves, and to be comfortable being ourselves, even if and when a partner isn;t comfortable with some aspects of who we are (I'm not talking behaviors, I mean unchangeable things like identities and beliefs). If and when a partner isn't comfortable with something like our gender, it's not healthy for us to try and hide, withhold, or otherwise represent that to please them.
2) We need a partner to work to see us as the gender WE are, not as how they want to or choose to see us. We also need our partners to respect our own sense of self and support it -- so, saying things like that they still see you as a different gender actually isn't an okay thing to say to you, in my book. If they want to talk about that with someone, someone like a counselor is the right person for that, not a nonbinary/trans person. Uh uh.
3) We need to not try and control or take responsibility for our partner's feelings (ever, not just around transness!). THEY are responsible for those, and if and when they feel discomfort because of their partner's gender, that's for them to work on, not something for you to try and help them avoid. If we can't grow in relationships, what are we even doing in them, you know?

Have you talked to her about any of this in the ways you're talking here? If so, I'm curious how that has gone.

There's a lot to address here, but one more thing I want to be sure not to miss is to talk about this idea that in relationships, one person is "the woman" and the other is "the man." For once, umm, guess nonbinary folks don't get to exist in relationship at all? But also, this is comphet stuff, some of the most noxious kind. I don't see how a queer or trans person could happily or healthily be in something with someone holding tight unto those kinds of antiquated beliefs, do you? Also, there's no such thing as a "normal hereto relationship," so sounds liek you yourself are holding unto some of those beliefs and ideas, too. I'd encourage you to deeply reconsider them: they don't serve anyone well, but they really, really don't serve queer or trans people well, since they either don't even acknowledge or pathologize our existence. <3

[Heather]

One more thing!

Relationships change over time. They do. In a myriad of ways. And it may just be that one way this relationship may change over time is that it doesn't stay romantic or sexual. If your girlfriend only wants a boyfriend but you aren't and don't want to be a boy, this just isn't going to work for either of you, and trying to make it work may well sour some of the parts of the relationship that DO work. You might want to consider just being who you are the way that feels best to you, and seeing how it does or doesn't work in your relationship with her. Perhaps a close but non-romantic friendship might turn out to be a better fit for you two, for instance.

[Emelyn]

Hey Heather, thanks so much for the insight

I guess part of the issue is that I still don't really know what I identify as. It'd be easier if I could just say with confidence that I'm a girl. But now I'm moreso feeling like I would maybe sometimes want to be a girl and other times I don't feel so strongly about it, and would just take being a guy so the constant worry/fear is gone, if that makes sense? That is making me wonder if I really need to explore being female in this aspect of my life or if it's just a fantasy I don't need to realize.

I always feel too awkward addressing anything about my identity to people irl so I just avoid it because I don't know how to explain it. I've told my gf I'd like to switch up pronouns with certain mutual friends, which she has tried to, but largely avoids using pronouns. I've also told her before, I don't really feel like a guy 100% of the time, and she says it's fine. But to her I'm still her bf.

And I agree about there not having to be a man and woman in a relationship, but by normal hetero I mean like...we're in a pretty conservative place, most of the relationships here are cis-het. So if I'm openly queer, people are gonna ask her about me, and I'd like to just keep a low profile and go about our normal lives.

She does often talk about fairytale romances and me being her dream guy. And I just feel awful not being able to be that for her. Like maybe I should've stressed more about being nonbinary when we met, instead of just saying it's okay if she calls me a guy. Maybe that is backfiring on me now, because back then I thought I could deal with it for a lifetime.

We still love each other a lot and I trust we'll stick together as long as we can weather this storm, lol. I'm just not sure how to broach the topic of identity again. I haven't even thought about what it means romantically or sexually. In that area, I think I'd be alright being with her as a man, but I also have my own desires to enjoy intimacy as a woman. It's complicated.

I am going to try a more feminine presentation with her and see how she takes it. Fingers crossed

[Heather]

What I am hearing from you right now is that maybe you're in a questioning space, maybe you're actually more of a genderfluid person, or maybe -- and this would certainly be understandable -- you are someone who feels more of a feminine identity but that scares you because it sounds like you are so unsupported in it in your life, with your gf, in your community, etc.

My best suggestion is yes, to just experiment and explore how you are feeling and how you want to present in whatever ways feel safe and okay for you, and then to also try and keep talking about this with your gf.

I want to add that it is not only okay, but that it is part of intimate relationships to challenge each other and also to need to ask our partners sometimes to do or think about things differently than they have, whether that is about pronouns, or how they see our roles, or how our relationship might be changing as one or both of us grow. I think in your case what might be best is to just ask her if you two can consider yourself in an ongoing conversation about all of this, and to do what you can to try and talk about it more often than you have been -- not too far past your point of comfort, but maybe push that just a little bit, you know? Free-flowing conversation about this seems like something that would be good for both of you. I think the same goes for perhaps pushing her on some things that you need where she needs to grow: for instance, if we are asking our parters to use certain pronouns for us and they are being avoidant, we get to tell them it really matters to us and ask them to try harder. We'd want them to do that were the roles reversed, right? <3

[Emelyn]

Mhm, I'm definitely back to questioning, just when I thought I'd gotten over it and life was peachy. I tried identifying as a girl when I was still figuring out gender back then, but it didn't feel right. I really didn't expect things to change so much. Nowadays, hearing she/her or feminine words used on me does make me feel euphoric. But I still feel like I'm lying to the people who think I'm a cis girl, and no one's questioned me, but I constantly worry about getting clocked. It is easier to be read as a guy. I am most worried that this is just another passing feeling like before, and not sure if I'm really ready/wanting to identify as a girl fully.

Thanks for the suggestions! I managed to talk to her a little bit, explaining how I felt, but I needed a little more time to figure out how to word things, so I'll get back to her once I know what I want to say.

On a bit of a tangent... I'm not sure how to go about changing up intimacy with my gf. I mentioned I'm okay being with her as a man, and that is the only way we have tried. But I have stronger feelings when I imagine doing things as a woman instead. I might have some dysphoria. I try to imagine doing them with her, but I can't quite sort that part out... how do I deal with a combination of physical dysphoria and role expectations while ensuring she still gets satisfaction out of it? Sorry if this is kinda vague but I didn't want to make it tmi

[Heather]

It's okay, and it would also be okay to say what you are probably thinking is TMI here if you want.

This is another thing where I think you just need to sit down and have an honest talk about it. I do generally believe that in sex, someone's discomfort trumps someone else's enjoyment, just like someone's no trumps someone else's yes, so I think starting with what you aren't comfortable with and being real about it is important. It's much easier to find accommodations or switches to find new ways to enjoy oneself and feel satisfied than it is for someone to be sexual with someone in ways that don't feel good to them. The latter is often earnestly damaging. Not being satisfied, or needing some time to find new ways to get there, is, at best, merely disappointing. So, you start with letting her know what isn't working for you anymore and y'all take it from there. Make sense?

I hear you about your conflicts and worries about passing. That's a very real thing for pretty much all people in any arena of transfemininity, and it's totally understandable. Are you familiar with writer Julia Serano's work? If not, I think you might find a lot in her books and articles.

[Emelyn]

Hmm I get that, I'll try to talk to her about it more. I think it is just part of me not wanting to impose on anyone or make things inconvenient for them. If she says she doesn't get satisfaction from something, my reflex is to just not do that thing anymore and feel like crap for not being able to please both of us if only I felt more like a guy. It's probably just me being idealistic, but at the back of my mind, guys are these magical beings that can (tmi) get intense pleasure from penetratation, but for me, it's not as good as weirdly thinking about playing around as a girl. We rarely do penetrative stuff anymore, which I feel really bad about, since she's not a big fan of getting herself off. It sounds dumb but I secretly fantasize about being a girl instead. (I still like her, it's just this disconnect with myself.) I wish I could make these feelings go away and be satisfied being her man.

I didn't know of Julia, but looking at some of her articles, I've read some of them before. The one on transfeminine people being denied the closet makes a lot of sense... I'll have to think about whether I've been presenting male because I was really fine with it or because I didn't want to lose that privilege. (Although, since I've stealthed as a girl in some spaces, I find myself kind of missing that privilege sometimes. I feel like I'm not qualified to relate to other women's experiences because I didn't suffer that way, and that adds to the fake feeling.) I will read more of her stuff, thanks for the recommendation!

I am most worried about exhibiting characteristics that cause me to be read wrongly by people. On bad days I feel like my voice isn't hitting the mark, or I have visible body hair in the wrong places, or my shoulders are too broad, et cetera. I recently thought I was doing pretty okay with the voice. But when I heard myself on a recording it just sounded so masculine, and it made me hold back on talking especially in women's spaces. It is just this plaguing feeling of covering up aspects of myself that is giving me second thoughts, like what if this is more trouble than it's worth?

[aarija]

Hey Emelyn,
I hear you on not wanting to inconvenience other as you explore your identity, and I understand the urge to prioritize other people's satisfaction, even when it means putting our own needs aside.

The thing about queerness is, it is almost always inconvenient for somebody. And truth be told, it is not the responsibility of queer folk to make life convenient for others. What we owe to the people in our lives, more than anything else, is honesty about our needs, boundaries and desires. I hear some uncertainty about where your identity falls and I know it can feel scary to vocalize a need or boundary today when you might not feel the same way tomorrow. Our needs and boundaries are constantly changing as we evolve, so don't feel guilty about being uncertain along the way.

Too, male presenting people are often assigned a very strict role in the relationship, and can especially feel the burden of providing sexual satisfaction for their partner. However, all parties in a relationship share the responsibility of meeting each other's needs and prioritizing each other's pleasure, regardless of gender.

It will likely feel uncomfortable, sometimes even painful, as you begin to prioritize your own needs and wants, and it does get easier the longer you do it. Doing this work is an essential part of our growth as social creatures, and building the habit of prioritizing yourself is especially important for queer folks.

The last thing I'll say is that penetration is far from the only way men experience sexual pleasure, and that no one person experiences pleasure the same way. There are many ways to make sex pleasurable for all parties and finding those ways is just a matter of exploration in a safe, consensual setting

[Sam W]

Hi Emelyn,

In addition to what aarija said, I want to offer a resource on gender-affirming voice therapy, in case that's something you'd be interested in or at least want to learn more about: Finding Our Own Voices: Renée Yoxon and Gender-Affirming Vocal Therapy.

I also want to touch on that feeling of not being able to relate to other women's experiences. The thing is, no woman can actually relate to any and all women's experiences, because our experiences AS women are influenced by a bunch of other identities and circumstances, including how our own feelings of gender interact with whatever societal expectations we face about how women "should" be. Too, I think it can help to remember that trans women are a subcategory of women as a whole, meaning that their experiences ARE women's experiences. Does that make sense?

[Emelyn]

Aarija: Thank you for the reassurance! I really needed to hear that. ♡ I guess I feel at fault for making things inconvenient for my gf because well, I didn't have to be queer, like if I didn't say anything about it at all life would just go on uneventfully. There's no queer indicator other than how I feel which is kind of iffy and hard to justify if that makes sense. It's like, I'm not even sure of my identity. If I could say with confidence that I'm a woman, it'd at least be something to go off of, but at the moment I'm just being wishy-washy about it to myself and my gf.

I'm definitely guilty of assuming the strict role in our relationship. She likes to be on the receiving end. We're both not very experienced with relationships in general as it's our firsts, so we don't really have anything to base it on. When we got together, she wanted to be hugged, cuddled and all that, and I was the one holding her most of the time. It doesn't help that most of our friends' relationships are quite traditional in that sense where they are expected to conform to gender roles. I still do but sometimes I just feel a strong desire to be in the reverse role, which kind of creates a problem because my gf also wants to receive affection, so I usually just cave and give it to her. I will try to figure out my needs and prioritize them better though. And yes, I'll explore more with her. It will just be a really awkward phase of figuring all this out

---

Sam: omg, you have no idea how validating it was to hear that! That's true, it's probably just my lack of confidence and being unsure about whether this desire to identify as a woman means I really am one. It's like if I'm nonbinary but presenting female, I guess that's where the feeling of fakeness and being unable to relate comes in (since I'd experienced socialization as a guy and I was only appearing like a woman instead of actually being one).

Thanks for the link! A gender affirming vocal coach sounds awesome. I'd considered going for voice lessons for general stuff like singing, but the dysphoria held me back. I worked on my voice by myself when I started presenting female. It's been going okay, but hearing myself on the recording, recently it feels like I am starting to dip back into masculine "range" (I get there's resonance too but not sure how to say it). It may just be me being hyper aware but I feel that my voice is getting me some looks at times. And it's holding me back from engaging with people as much as I would like when presenting female. I recently attended an event in "boymode", and although the dysphoria hit hard, I felt a lot more at ease talking to people or speaking in general because nobody would find my voice weird. I'll admit it is a big part of questioning my identity.

Around my gf, I go back to my usual voice especially if her family or friends are present. I'd tried out voice stuff with her but she still likes my deep voice and I feel bad for taking that away from her.

[Emelyn]

Something else just came to mind that I feel really awful about. Over here, a lot of "girl talk" is whether you have a relationship or not. So when people asked me, I said yep, I have someone. Then people assume I have a bf, because to them I'm a girl and lesbian relationships are almost unheard of. I know I should correct them but I'm so scared to. Like, what if they start nitpicking things and come to the conclusion I'm not a girl...

[Sam W]

I'm glad what I said was helpful! And if you think the vocal therapy would help with some of that dysphoria, I would absolutely pursue. I know Renee has at least some free resources and exercises, which could also act as a good starting point if you wanted to test out the techniques without committing to full sessions just yet.

If you haven't tried it already, it may also be worth listening to recordings of women with famously "masculine" voices, just to have some examples to turn to when your brain insists your voice sounds wrong. Laura Jane Grace is one to try, as she's both a trans woman and a singer. There are also cis women like Leslie Jones or the late, great Bea Arthur who have voices in that deeper register.

With whether to correct people when they assume you have a boyfriend, try not to be too hard on yourself for erring on the side of caution. You get to choose when, if, and how you come out to people you're talking to, and that includes coming out in small ways like correcting assumptions about your partner and their gender. Too, if you're getting the sense that if the people you're talking to would start looking for "proof" you're not a girl if you said you were lesbian, then not telling them might be the best bet in that moment. Does that make sense?

[Emelyn]

Thanks! I checked out the channel. Deep voices in women are a rarity here. It's hard to not keep stressing about passing but I'll try my best

I finally got the courage to present female in front of my gf and she admitted it was the first time she couldn't help but see me as a girl. Small victories ^^

[Andy]

Hi Emelyn!

I’m glad to hear the resources Sam shared are helpful and also really glad to hear you felt comfortable presenting the way you want with your girlfriend, yay! Would you like to talk more about that experience?

[Emelyn]

I had to spend some time sorting my thoughts out about it... liberating, sure, to be able to express myself in front of her, but I also felt like crying and just giving up halfway. She has a very fixed idea of masculinity and femininity in a relationship. So it's either I'm the guy (by default - because I've always been just like anything goes) or I'm the girl and she forces herself to "be the guy" (i.e. do chivalrous things or what social norms here dictate for guys) so our dynamic can balance out or something. I don't blame her, we have very old-fashioned circles and I have a lot of friends stuck in this thinking, but I just felt like...maybe it makes sense to minimize discomfort and I should just go "boy mode" with her?

The silver lining is I managed to stick through with it and in the end she said she finally did see me as a girl.

[Jacob]

Oh Emelyn, I'm so glad you got some validation from the moment, but I also can't help feeling sad you're having to frame your gender within the confines of this particular relationship.

I don't think recognition of your gender has to always be the number one concern of every relationship when there are other things you like about a relationship, but it still matters.

I have had partners describe the way they see my gender which have been validating, other times they have been quite invalidating, when I realise they see things in me which I do not, and other times a partner sees me in ways which are a good 5-10 years ahead of how I would later see myself, at which point I look back and think "Oh yeah! Of course!"... the latter has been the most validating because it means they really-really saw me.

If you think about things long term, with the possibility that you may be in different relationships with different people, what's the ideal for you in how you would want to be seen or feel seen by a partner?

[Emelyn]

Hmm that's fair! I'm still figuring out that part, I guess... I used to not care about how others read me and would go with whatever they decided, but lately I'm not sure anymore, as I've started feeling more and more dysphoric at being seen as a guy. By itself, I guess I don't really care about gender. If it were not for being treated in a certain way depending on how I present, I think I'd just wear whatever I liked regardless of the gender it's associated with. I like the look of feminine clothing, but will admit I sometimes dress stereotypically feminine just to be perceived that way. Sometimes when I wear more androgynous clothing I worry about not looking feminine enough.

I would kind of want to introduce my pronouns as she/her to new people, but that makes me worry about them finding out I'm faking it. In terms of relationships I've imagined being seen as a boy, a girl, in between, and neither, and I have no idea. I've never experienced a relationship while being seen "as a girl", well, up till now. But I feel like over time I might change my mind.

[aarija]

It is perfectly normal (and healthy) to shift what is and isn't important to you as you grow. I'm hearing that peoples' perception of you wasn't a huge deal in the past, but as you have explored your gender identity further, it is something that matters more. That's good! And it's a part of growth.

The sad thing is, how we present really shouldn't affect how we're treated, especially amongst the people who know us. But our gender expression does have an impact, both on how we are perceived and how we feel about ourselves.

I think using your preferred pronouns when introducing yourself to new people is a good way to ease yourself in. You're not faking it, even if you don't use those pronouns all the time, or later decide to change your mind. It's a chance for you to explore how it feels when people know you as a girl from the start. If your concern is that they find out you use different pronouns with other people; A) that's not their business and B) you can explain that you're not out to everyone in your life.

Lastly, in terms of your relationship, it is important that both of you are getting your needs met. If that means taking turns being the one who is held and comforted, it's something y'all can negotiate!